Who did Christ die for?

So are you saying that Christ died for His sheep plus some who are not His sheep?

 

I fully agree, Brother James. But not all sinners are "His sheep", otherwise He Himself would not have said to some Jews, "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you." (John 10.26)

 

This should be good.

 

Christ died for ALL, so that those who were willing to become His sheep, those who wanted the truth, could. The way was paved for ALL by His death, but only a few find the narrow gate....

check Romans 1 -- you have to want the truth or you will be given over to the lie. It's one or the other. But nothing any man has ever or will want would have counted at all had Christ not died to atone for our sins.

Every person has the freedom to want from God. Animals only want by instinct, but we are free to want by choice. Those who want the truth will be led by the Father to the Son who will turn none away. Wanting is not a 'works'. Desire is just desire and has nothing to do with ability to achieve.

Christ paved the way through atonement on the Cross. He then provides salvation through His own works to anyone who wants it or, not knowing enough to want salvation itself, simply wants the truth and goes for the truth. He will be led to Christ, who has accomplished everything for us, and the glory is entirely His.

But God so loved the WORLD, and desires that NONE should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance. Nevertheless, He has chosen, in His sovereignty, to allow us to choose and respects the right He gave us to do so.

 

You tell me. Are "all" His sheep..."every man" His sheep...the "whole world" His sheep?

 

This particular subject seems to have been discussed many times , even in the few months since I joined the BB. All I would say is that Jesus did not say to those Jews in John 10.26, "You are not of My sheep, because you are not willing to be My sheep", nor did He say, "You are not of My sheep, because you do not believe." Rather, He told them that they did not believe because they were not of His sheep.

 

Sentence structure was quite different in that time, if my memory is correct. It mattered not which sequence the words were made...but the intent of the words.

 

That sort of thinking could be disasterous. What would a young child make of Jesus' words in Luke 14.26?:

"If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple."

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A simple, child-like reading of that verse by a child with a Christian father would surely lead that child to think, "Daddy loves Jesus, so he must hate Mummy and me and my uncles and aunties!"

 

About Jesus words in John 10, how could He have been thinking about all sinners being His sheep?
His words do not seem to fit that definition of sheep.
vs. 14,15- I know my sheep and my sheep know me-- just as the Father knows me and I know the Father--and I lay down my life for the sheep.
How could Jesus say that about all sinners when the Jews of verse 20 said he was demon-possessed. Clearly those sinners did not know Him, so how could Jesus call those unbelievers "my sheep"?
Not only that, Jesus equates the "knowing of his sheep" with the "knowing of His Father". How could he equate this "knowing", which I believe is describing those who are united by a covenantal love, (ie. God's love for Israel, a husband and wife's love, Christ's love for the church, and here the Father's love for the Son and vice versa), how could Jesus equate this covenantal status with all sinners, including the ones He knew would never believe?

Then he finishes off his description of such sheep by saying he lays down His life for the sheep. The sheep who He knows and know Him. And since I consider myself one of those sheep who He knows and know Him, He must have been including those who were not yet knowing of Him, but would one day believe.

Finally, Jesus comes out and tells the unbelieving Jews in verse 26, "but you do not believe because you are not my sheep."
So they are not His sheep, the sheep who He knows and know Him and the sheep He lays down His life for.

vs. 27--My sheep listen to my voice; I know them and they follow me.
Jesus again is clearly delinating His sheep from those to whom He was speaking. The unbelievers to whom He was speaking, did not listen to His voice, Jesus did not "know" them and they did not follow Him.
Why?
Because they showed themselvesn not to be His sheep. For if they were His sheep, they would have heard His voice, recognized it and followed Him.
Earlier in the chapter Jesus had said that He came so that His sheep, may have life and have it to the full.
If you believe in Jesus' omniscience as the Son of God, then you must admit, that Jesus was already aware of those who would believe and those who would not believe, from the beginning all the way to the end of time.
Why would he have the unbelieving Jews in mind here?
They will never have life due to their unbelief.
Isn't Jesus already of aware of their eternal destiny when He is speaking to them?

So why would He continue to think of them as sheep who He will die for when in reality, they are not His sheep, they will never have eternal life, but in fact will perish? There is no room in this passage to see Jesus words as extending to every sinner, every straying sheep.

And to make His words even more clear Jesus goes on in vs. 29--My Father, who has given them to me is greater than all;
Jesus is speaking about His sheep, who listen to His voice, and follow Him, these He says have been given to Him by His Father.

Jesus has told the crowds this concept of the Father giving Him a people just back in John 6:37
"All that the Father gives me will come to me and whoever comes to me I will never drive away."
So all the sheep that the Father has given to Jesus will come to Him because they are His sheep and they have been given to their Good Shepherd and since He is the True Shepherd and not the hired hand, Jesus will bring them into His fold and not drive them away.
6:39--"and this is the will of Him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that He has given me, but raise them up at the last day."
The Father has given His Sheep to Jesus and Jesus says that He will lose none of them that have been given to Him, but will indeed raise them up at the last day.
And who are those who will be raised up at the last day?
vs. 40-- For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life and I will raise Him up at the last day.

And who is that "everyone"?
The ones the Father has given to Jesus.

And when the Jews began to grumble about His words claiming to have come from heaven instead of just being Mary and Joseph's son whom they knew, He tells them to stop grumbling and then these famous words in verse 44.
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws Him and I will raise him up at the last day."
When these Jews were confronted with Jesus' claim that He was the Son of God, they rejected that claim and Jesus explains why.
Unless the Father draws you, no one can come. And since we have already seen the langauge that Jesus uses of the Father's actions in "giving" a people to Jesus, then this verse works nicely with who the Father draws to the Son. And then Jesus says that same thing He has already said about these ones who the Father gives Him, He will raise him up at the last day.

And as the grumbling, arguing and unbelief persist, so does Jesus teaching that that the reason for their unbelief is because they do not have the Spirit which gives life.(vs. 63, 64a).
"The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spiritual and they are life. Yet there are some of you do not believe. "
The Spirit gives life.
Jesus has already stated that the Father has given Him those who believe and are His sheep.
Now He teaches them that it is through the Holy Spirit that those who are given to Him receive life.
Then John the writer tells us something about Jesus in the rest of vs. 64--For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him.

So Jesus in keeping with his nature of being God, is already aware that those who are currently showing unbelief are in fact those who will not believe and perhaps he might be singling Judas out at this moment with a glance over to him when he says and "who would betray him".
So Jesus with full knowledge of the eternal destiny of the souls standing around him, says this to them all.
vs. 65--He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

The Father must enable these unbelieving Jews to come to Jesus and believe in the Son and thus gain eternal life and be raised up by Jesus at the last day.

So who is limiting the scope of Jesus ability to save these unbelievers?
Jesus is, when He tells them that his Father must enable them to come, that the Father must draw them and the Spirit must give them life just like He told Nicodemus in chapter 3. "The Spirit gives birth to spirit".

And when the Spirit gives life, then you believe.
"Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from Him comes to Me." (6:45)

Which is in keeping with what Jesus had already taught, "All that the Father gives me will come to me." (6:37)
No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.


I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me, just as the the Father knows me and I know the Father and I lay down my life for the sheep.

The Father gives the Jesus his sheep, the Holy Spirit gives life to the sheep to know their Shepherd, and Jesus as the Good Shepherd, lays down His life for the sheep.

Unity within the Trinity over the plan of redemption.
The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit all working as one to save their sheep.

The Father is not hoping that more sheep will be saved then is already known and are given.
He has already given His Son a people, the Son has now come and died for those people, and now the Holy Spirit continues to give life to those people and at the last day, the Son will raise those people up to life to live with Him for all eternity.

(Sorry for the length of this post, but I think the topic deserved the length).

 

True. And every man includes those who say Christ died for all mankind, or all you have to have is faith to believe, or that His blood is intended for all mankind but saved only a few, or those that say man is not totally corrupt and is able to decide for himself.

So that kind of cuts both ways for the Calvinist and the Arminian, the Pelagians and the semi-Pelagians, and everybody else in between, including me, you, and everybody else on this board.

So, please, don't act and talk like Calvinists and those who hold to the Doctrine of Grace were the scum of Christianity.

One finger points at somebody, three point right back at you.

 

1. It is with some reservation that I say this, But brojames is a young lad who needs to get his theology right by soaking himself in the text of Scripture, before biting off more than he can chew at this point in his life.

2. He needs to be mentored by a solid, well-satured man in the Word. One who would tell him that it is ok to us another version the the KJV; one who would tell him that Calvinists aren't the bad guys.

 

Did Christ die for ALL those who had already perished in their sin and unbelief prior to His death on the cross?
Yes or no?

 

Yes. Atonement was for all...the whole world.

Welcome back, it's been a while

 

Yes it has been. I've been just reading the last month or so.

Help me understand the position.
Christ died for people who were already condemned to hell due to their sin and unbelief?
What purpose did His death serve those who were already condemned to hell?

 

It makes free-willers feel good about it.

 

What makes free willers feel good is that Christ is the propitiation not only for our sin...but for THE WHOLE WORLD. Of course whole world doesn't really mean whole world.

 

That's what I said.