Who does God Love?!

Hello webdog.

He has to if He is God because Jesus paid the penalty for all the Judges Children. May His Name be praised. But this is personal nor are the ones that are judged by Him His Children. And the judge is subject to the law as the Judge is not subject to anything He is Sovereign.

That it does.

No they are paying the price imposed on being predestined to Hell as sinners. There is no sin in not believing Jesus died for your sins because if you don't believe He didn't. One will not face a punishment for not being a partaker of an atonement that was not given for one.

I thought you thought He was love? Is He Vengeful?

No it is written that love never never never never never fails. Love does not keep a record of wrongs and it always protects and He protects He came down to die for His beloved. Since He died for me He will now spend Himself living for me. A dead Christ saved me a live One need only keep my feet clean. It is finished. The One that died for me now washes my feet for me.

It's not impartial but you are running the danger again of implying that God cannot something? I don't see any impartiality in Jacob I loved Esau I loved less!
JN 21:20 Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them.
PS 147:19 He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. 20 He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws.
John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
Matt 1:21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."

You have a failure you err because your beliefs do not match scripture. God is very partial to doing as He pleases.

john.

 

I don't even know where to start with this except, this is so off the wall! The Bible clearly tell us that if you believe, you have eternal life, BELIEVE NOT, eternal damnation. It's very simple. The Bible NOWHERE mentions people being predestined to hell. There is no sin in not believing? Sin is: Things we do that we aren't supposed to, and things we DON'T DO that we are supposed to. Unbelief is sin.

He is love, and I didn't say it, God did. Problem with that? He is just and righteous, that's why people go to hell.

Correct, if we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us. If we don't, He doesn't and the sinful man pays the price.

What an arrogant and false statement! Christ lives for YOU?!? I knew calvinists thought they were "special", but man, is this wrong!

No, a dead and RISEN Saviour saved you. Christ "need only keep your feet clean"?!? NEWFLASH....WE LIVE FOR JESUS, HE DOESN'T LIVE FOR US! HE GAVE HIS LIFE FOR US, WE HUMBLY GIVE OUR LIVES BACK TO HIM! The Bible says EVERY knee will bow to HIM. Not the other way around!

I try to line up my beliefs squarely with God's Word and not a theological system to fit my beliefs. From this post I don't know how you can claim this with your theological beliefs, you are so off on some things!

 

Greetings

God is extrememly jealous (Ex 34:14, Num 5:14, Deut 4:24, many more).

God also executes vengeance against sinners (Deu 32:35; Psa 94:1; 149:7). There is even a special day known as the day of the LORD's vengeance (Isa 34:8).

God is a complete whole. He is not Love to the exclusion of other things. It appears that you are implying a warped God suited to some sort of universalism.

Lloyd

 

Greetings Lloyd.

He shouldn't have chosen us as a wife then He knew what we were like.

Yes I know.

I am a Calvinist Lloyd true blue sort of. Nice to meet you.

The Arminians are claiming God is love and I was checking out webdog. I thought you thought He was love? Is He Vengeful?
He answered He is love, and I didn't say it, God did. Problem with that? He is just and righteous, that's why people go to hell. That suggests to me a God that cannot stop loving even when he is taking vengence. Some are stuck on 'God is love' and so He cannot hate. A failure of love they end up with I think and a failure of love is contrary to scripture.

I've never met a universalist. But I think that we all have some sort of image set up by which to worship Him. A warped image just some more than others.

john.

 

Hello webdog.

No it is written that love never never never never never fails. Love does not keep a record of wrongs

So love never fails?
You answer: 'Correct, if...'? Does it fail or not?

This is the easy one.

john.

 

Hello webdog.

A dead Christ saved me a live One need only keep my feet clean. It is finished. The One that died for me now washes my feet for me. I said that!

A dead Christ saved me a live One need only keep my feet clean. It is finished. The One that died for me now washes my feet for me. That daring 'a'? Blew my mind as I typed it that did.

Not so a dead Christ saved me. He died for my sins. Once my debt had been discharged I was free to come in and go out and find pasture.
RO 5:9 Since we have now been justified by his blood... By His death I am justified.
...how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! By His life my feet are washed.

Yes?

We are lovers we live for each other I did not say we did not live for Jesus but I said only that Jesus lives for us. You jump to conclusions and you get into a paddy and get your caps lock stuck.

The Sons of the Kingdom cannot say that because He said: Heb 7:25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. You do not know the scriptures how can you say I try to line up my beliefs squarely with God's Word and not a theological system to fit my beliefs.
It's like I said 'You have a failure you err because your beliefs do not match scripture.' Your position is untenable and God is showing you that fact.

Did He? Is this the common language seperating us again? Who are the us? All men? No. Us, the elect. But that is off beam because He died for me and whoever believes and I believe so He died for me. It's personal He loves me and I know Him and He knows me and I know that is true because I believe Christ died for my sins. I mean Christ died for my sins.

Humbly and love don't really go with caps lock. How many Kingdom points you make today webdog?

Yea I know He does surprise one does He not? I mean He could have given the idea that He would wash our hair or not bother at all but instead of that He gets on His knees before me, it's true I tell you, and like some servant and with a towel round His middle He cleans me feet. He is awesome to me.
You see Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God; 4 so he got up from the meal, took off his outer clothing, and wrapped a towel around his waist. 5 After that, he poured water into a basin and began to wash his disciples' feet, drying them with the towel that was wrapped around him.

What's that? Answer me webdog. Are you so humbly refusing to have the Lord God Almighty on His knees in front of you?

I did not say that every knee would not bow before Him did I? I did not say He would bow down before everyone did I? So much imagination you have.

Anyway to carry on with my story. He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, "Lord, are you going to wash my feet?" He reminds me a bit of you. Jesus replied, "You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand." "No," said Peter, "you shall never wash my feet." Jesus answered, "Unless I wash you, you have no part with me."

What do you think then webdog? Unless He washes our feet we have no part of Him.

Then you fail don't you?

It's just scripture I've used not opinion I cannot love God with my opinion of who He is can I? It would not be Him I loved but an image set up in my mind and heart and that would be wrong to have an image set up in such a place as God's Temple wouldn't it?
He is mine and I am His and no man can seperate those that God's joined together.

That's because you have your mind set on what you think I believe and you do not listen. I am consistant and I try to be clear.

I say this for you. Next time you find yourself typing in capitals I suggest you stop and figure out why you are angry. If it was a thing I said then look up some scriptures to throw at me and if you can't don't.
A gift horse should always be examined, nothings for nothing.

john.

 

Hello webdog.

Good start.

Eternal damnation from a God of love how touching. Eternal damnation does not come from not believing, but only as a natural consequence, in Jesus but comes from our sin natures not from not believing. Where is the scripture to support you? Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--

Exactly.

As far as you are concerned it says nothing about predestined at all! I can see the awful danger I have just put that word into. You're going to mistreat it aren't you?

Why don't you learn what I'm saying then you might be able to form better arguments. My doctrine cannot see it anyother way can it? I told you why it was not a sin. If no atonement is made for you you cannot be held responsible for that can you? Atonement! I'm sorry atonement you are going to get it as well.

That's a lot of things ain't it? Why don't you lighten the burden and go for one or two? Sin is a corrupt nature and that is what produces the sins. You do not go to Hell for sins is proved by not all go to Hell for their sins and Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-- And that caused this: the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Rom 8:7.

I asked you I thought you thought He was love? Is He Vengeful? and you reply with the quote below:

I have no problem with that but you have a problem it would appear. Why did you not answer the question Is He Vengeful? Is He Vengeful? Yes or no will do. Lloyd has given the scriptural support for yes. Do you agree with him?

Here we go. I am correct in saying love never fails yet we have a God that sticks it to the ones He loves with torture and brute force. Some love you have. ...if we confess our sin... That is intended only for the chosen. That will not gain you salvation and if you teach others that you run the risk of causing stumbling. It is by grace so it does not...depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. Rom 9:16.

False then being true in the way you deal with words? Arrogant I agree with.

john.

 

Hello webdog.

Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"
He loved me and gave Himself for me. Is that the arrogance you mean?
EPH 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church-- 30 for we are members of his body. 31 "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." 32 This is a profound mystery--but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.
Is it arrogance to expect my husband to love me more than Himself or is it scripture? God is love. That is what love is. And why should I not believe He loves me more than He loves Himself? The cross was a statement made to me of His dedication to my welfare. That's where I am.

As I said arrogance becomes us. It seeps through our control and is hardy noticed by most Calvinists I've had the good fortune to meet. A very special people as their Christ was slain on their behalf and they are now to inherit life the universe and everything.
1PE 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Have I become more than one? You are talking to me and me to you why bring any others in as if they had a bearing on our conversation? How much further forward does this take us? What makes me to be a spokesman for all Calvinists? Do all Arminians believe in the same thing?

But arrogant has another meaning and one that must be leveled at those who claim to save themselves. Is it arrogant to say I was saved by grace or that I can thwart the will of God?


Warning: I have not exhusted all the possibilties.

john.

 

john. [/QUOTE]


john...you are good. You got them again. haha

good line and very true if you stop and read it.


In Christ...James

 

James, John...if you believe that ONLY a dead Chirst is what saved you, why did He rise again? To only clean your feet? That's the most our Lord means to you risen? It was the death, burial and resurrection that saves. This is what separates Jesus Christ God from false gods...they remain in the grave, Christ did not.

 

...hmmmm, I recall reading something about boasting....if God unconditionally elected you, and this would not be a reason to boast, why do you boast?
What's with the 'their Christ'? Christ is the property of someone, doing the will of YOU?

 

Webdog,

I'm not for sure, because it was not my words. But i don't think John said Christ was to only clean your feet? But it is one of the better reasons i know of. or at least...It is a major part of it...is it not? i don't want to steal Johns point, for he could take this idea a long way and bring out many good things.

i'll just add..resurrection is a picture of the new life in Christ. The death is what cleans us. The resurrection is there for many reasons but it is the blood that washes us white as snow. We can talk about this if you wish.


In Christ...James

 

#1. YOU are the one bringing up Is 63.

#2. YOU are the one that has to make your point about your OWN beliefs regarding the chapter YOU bring up!

Get it??

#3. I brought up Romans 2 and I have been first and foremost in clarifying MY views of Romans 2 WHILE holding your feet to the fire as you run away from the "impartial" God of Romans 2. Nothing pleases me more than to have you ask about MY views on texts I BRING UP!!

Get it??

#4. you appear to be fully "conflicted" on Isaiah 53 and fleeing even YOUR OWN text - while trying to get me to jump in.

See??

#5. Your cut-and-run snipe-and-flee tactics on Isaiah 63 are simply not "compelling". So I am asking that you "stick around" on the topic of your OWN TEXT that YOU rise for review - rather than fleeing the room after dropping the text like a smoke bomb of "obfuscation".

See?

(Is this really that hard to get?)

I have asked you to clarify your OWN VIEWS on a text that "supposedly" YOU want to talk about. What could be more "satisfying" if in fact you really DO want to talk about that text??

Your reluctance to explore your OWN answers for the text YOU raise - shows that this is not really YOURs at all - it is merely an attempt to misdirect.

I already posted the response to this one FROM scripture - did you want to see it "again" or are you ready to "respond"?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hello Bob.

I was unaware of the procedure I am sorry. You should have said earlier it would have saved time.

I do see.

Not now it's not but it was a bit difficult before because, as you know, I can't read minds Bob.

And I asked you why you thought you needed to know what I believed it was not a difficult passage and it is a blindingly bright shiny Calvinist passage. What is the need to clarify the clarity?

The 'more satisfying' would be to talk with another Calvinist on the subject or failing that pulling my finger nails out would be better I think than discussing anything with you usually. You see I'm answering your post.

Far too deep for me but I won't ask you to explain because my days on this earth are limited.

John P asked Bob, asked, asked, asked, asked, asked, asked...

All that needed was 'God' or 'Pharaoh' and you elect to go for 23 words, 4 quotation marks, a dash and a question mark when one word would have done and then, believe it or not, you ask me if I want to hear the answer again after asking and asking.
No Bob I could not give a fig whether you answer or not.

john.

 

It's "God so loved the world". Not "God so loved some in the world".

Not by name. But, if God loved the world, then he loved Esau as well.

Nope. It says God hated Esau, but where does it say that hating is the withholding of love. That's an English language assumption not present in the source texts.

 

Hello webdog.

Without the shedding of blood their is no forgiveness of sin. A sacrifice of atonement atones because another died.

No He wanted to be with me because He is crazy about me and showed that there is nothing that He would not do for me.

I said He washes my feet and so He does and if that is all the Lord means to me I don't mind as no one else ever did. He will wash my feet.

Why are you not using scripture?

Come on webdog others are watching. Where's the scripture to rebut? But something of boasting I can say that if anyone glories they must glory over their own salvation. As for me I am what I am by the grace of God.

Sorry, I though boasting was ok. Is it unscriptural?

He is ours and we are His do you not understand what He has done? We are His body, we participate in the divine nature. What does Arminianism offer?

john.

 

...hmmmm, I recall reading something about boasting....if God unconditionally elected you, and this would not be a reason to boast, why do you boast?
What's with the 'their Christ'? Christ is the property of someone, doing the will of YOU? </font>[/QUOTE]Webdog,

Not that you agree with Johnv on all things or anything for that matter, but surely you can see that he is very good with his pick of words to prove a point. I see John time and time again pull you and Bob in over the use of one word, or phrase that you think is "off the wall". Yet he shows that you read more into it the post then what he says. He plays on your "preset" ideas in doctrine. No I should say, He counts on your reply before he post. By now you should be asking...."now why in the world would he say this"

Above you jumped on the boasting yet you didn't see his wording to know there was a point.

John said...
"As I said arrogance becomes us"
" A very special people as their Christ was slain on their behalf and they are now to inherit life the universe and everything."

Paul said....
2 Corinthians 7:14 - For if I have boasted any thing to him of you, I am not ashamed; but as we spake all things to you in truth, even so our boasting, which I made before Titus, is found a truth.

We are not to boast in our works, for it is not i'll goodness that saves us. but if we do boast, boast that God saved us..worthless though we be. This boasting lifts up God. Many have a salvation plan that takes away from Gods glory. When John boast of salvation he is saying it is all God..not me. Others say its me and God. Now that is the wrong boast.

Also....the "washing feet"...that got to you a bit. I had to laugh at this one...it was good. Washing our feet is a day by day cleaning. I think its john 13...or something close to this. Johnp said something like..."God died for me...and that saved me...and now He washes my feet. Now that is a great God." Is that not just a sum of john 13? Yet you read more into it...for your doctrine is so set in you that you did not see the truth.

Calvinist often are said to be caught in some trap of not fully understanding the Bible, for they come to the table with perset ideas. I will have to agree that this happens sometimes. But you must also agree that many Arminian do the very thing they pointout in a Calvinist. This above should show if one would drop the "arminiam armed for a fight" machine that drives MOST post that many other post would not be needed. Knewing your Bible is one thing, but to be so wrapped up in a doctrine that makes one change words and not even talk about some words is a bad thing.

It is wrong to just post verses about God can hate. This gives a very bad view of God. Its also wrong to say those verses are not there...or to change the meaning to another word. Its wrong to say that God did not send his Son so that the WORLD...all that is in the world can be saved...thought faith. Its also wrong to not show Gods holy nature..and that He hates sin.

The dangers of both Calvinism and Arminianism is when you just hold to these 5 points only...of either side. It is no surprise to you that I hold to Calvinism. Yet anytime i place these 5 ponits higher then other facts of God my doctrine goes South. Does this happen? yes...at times i place to much meaing to the "5 points".

Its one thing to say ...YES I AGREE WITH THESE 5 THINGS"
Still it is another thing to have it as the only faith you have.

Over all i hold to much more then just this little outline of sin, salvation and the state of man. God is much more then these 5 points.

I see this same problem in the Arminian camp. Their hold to a "point" will not allow them to address some facts of God. They see God as a God of love as they well should. But their "points" will not let them look at other things of God.

The word "freewill vs election" is only one of those things. Their hold to freewill is from a point of their doctrine. So when faced with election they must change the meaning to make it fit the point.

Some take the points of Calvin and try to change the word "world" to only part of the world. this too is done from holding to a "point" of doctrine.

Frankly.....

It would not surprise me if we both are wrong. In the NT we now look back and wonder how the jews missed it. There are so many passages pointing to Christ...and some way they over looked it. This may be the same for us over this debate. Its there in the Bible clear glass ..but we can't see it. Someway it all works out...but we may be be shown how the 2 meet till Christ Shows us himself


In Christ...James

 

James,

Good post.

Here is an excellent message on the danger of loving a system more than a savior, of letting your system determine your interpretation rather than the other way around.

(Presented by Danny Akin while at Southern Seminary ( a very Calvinistic institution. Akin is now the pres. of SEBTS)
http://www.sebts.edu/president/resources/viewResource.cfm?ResourceID=63

 

I was unaware of the procedure
</font>[/QUOTE][/quote]

Just be be sure I have the "snippet" part you are addressing "in detail" so far -- I think you quote it as

"Get it?
"See?"
"Is this really that hard to get?"

It is always reassuring to get the "snippet and duck" response from JohnP. I am just more and more amazed at the tiny "snippets" he allows himself to "see" as time drags on.

 

It's "God so loved the world". Not "God so loved some in the world".
</font>[/QUOTE]Actually this is the part where James says that he (for one) agrees with the Arminian acceptance of the text - in its unchanged -- non-downsized meaning.

In Christ,

Bob