1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Who does God Love?!

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Brian Hildebran, Aug 17, 2005.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    John P said --
    Who is it that hardens their hearts.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    quote:Bob said --
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I already posted the response to this one FROM scripture - did you want to see it "again" or are you ready to "respond"?
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    You seem to object to the scriptures quoted - still looking for a "snippet" to go with that "duck"?
     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    #1. Does God hate sin? and Love ALL??

    #2. Does God hate SOME SINNERS and love others? (Pick and choose loving and hating?)

    Do you have one of these that you will stick with?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0
    This seems silly to keep going over this.

    I'll tell you what. Lets do what we always do. I'll post the verses..and you can change the meaning. Sounds like fun..right? Ok..let me post some.


    1. Does God hate sin? and Love ALL??
    ***********************
    "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." (John 15:13).

    "In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. Herein is love, not that we loved God but that He loved us, and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins" (I John 4:9-10).

    for God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him (John 3:17)

    **************************
    #2. Does God hate SOME SINNERS and love others? (Pick and choose loving and hating?)

    a) Does God hate sinners.....

    Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,"
    *

    Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them."
    *

    Prov. 6:16-19, "There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil,
    19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers."
    *

    Hosea 9:15, "All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there!  Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels."

    *******************

    Does God pick and choose? as in the PURPOSE OF GODS ELECTION...

    Romans 9

    11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

    Romans 11

    And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

    7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

    BLINDED?? humm

    8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day

    2 Thessalonians 2

    11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

    Did Christ hand pick his apostles or did he post a signup sheet?

    John 15:16 - Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

    Was david hand picked over his brothers?

    Was paul hand picked over other sinners?

    **********************

    Ok your turn Bob to change the meaning.


    Now my guess is that you will tell me to believe the 1st set of verses...and then you will change the next set to fit your doctrine. or post other verse to try to OVERRIDE the last verse


    Lets see what happens

    In Christ...James
     
  4. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello Bob.

    :cool: HaHa! What a laugh! :cool:
    How you going old chap hope you are well? How's the weather where you are I do hope it's better than here although here is better than on the continent.
    You will have to drop in for a cuppa some time it would be nice to have tea and crumpets with you I think.

    Got to dash I have some questions to answer. :cool:

    john.
     
  5. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello webdog. (loosely based on post posted 24 August, 2005 04:11 page 6)

    I said: No it is written that love never never never never never fails. Love does not keep a record of wrongs

    Your reply was: Correct, if we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us. If we don't, He doesn't and the sinful man pays the price.

    So I replied: So love never fails? You answer 'Correct, if...'?* :cool: Does it fail or not?
    *(I misplaced the question mark and it is now where it should have been.)

    I then said: This is the easy one.

    I then ended it with john.

    This has cropped up on that other thread and so I invite you to respond to it and not as you have gone and done ignoring it. :cool:
    1 Cor 13:5 ...[love] keeps no record of wrongs. You will agree I'm sure that the partial verse says that love keeps no record of wrongs. Our sins are wrongs are they not? Please answer.
    If our sins are wrong and if God loves everyone then why does He keep a record of wrongs if love does not keep a record of them?
    You have said love never fails but then you qualify that with an 'if'. 'If we confess our sins' but why should salvation depend on our confession of sin if love keeps no record of it? This is a contradiction isn't it. :cool:

    Do you think that saying sorry for what you have done has any bearing on your salvation? Do you imagine that asking for forgiveness for your actions will actually be enough for God to say Ok? Have you seen Charlie and the chocolate factory because that is where that belongs? :cool: Unless God is in it it is works.

    2 Cor 7:10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

    So please let me know why you believe love fails as love never failing is one of my favourite verses.

    john.
     
  6. webdog

    webdog Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,696
    Likes Received:
    2
    I responded to 1 Corinthians on the other thread...and no, love never fails. Maybe your view of God's love would fail, but mine doesn't.
     
  7. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello webdog.
    I've just seen it and will respond there later. At the worse I will drop the point but you have little right to say that I believe love fails when I said it doesn't?
    Love cannot fail otherwise it is not love.

    john.
     
  8. webdog

    webdog Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,696
    Likes Received:
    2
    I've just seen it and will respond there later. At the worse I will drop the point but you have little right to say that I believe love fails when I said it doesn't?
    Love cannot fail otherwise it is not love.

    john.
    </font>[/QUOTE]*TWIST* :rolleyes: you guys sure are good at doing this! I said "maybe your view of God's love would fail...", hardly accusing you of anything.
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    I can see why you might need to say that.

    But the point remains - you can not hold to conflicting views and then "blame God".

    Why not pick one consistent position instead?

    Why not just stick with a less conflicted view of scripture and stop blaming God for the contradictions you claim to find?

    Is that really so distasteful??

    And that answers the question of "hating sin and loving all" HOW??

    (or is this a rabbit trail to dodge the point)?

    Bob adds to that - the quote from 1 John 4:14

    Since it "appears" that you are willing to discuss this SAME subject in Romans 5 as we see in 1John 4:14...

    Perhaps this is your way of saying you will AGREE that it is out of LOVE that God "Sent His son into the world to be the SAVIOR of the WORLD"

    eh?

    Once again?

    Back on the right track!

    Indeed and "as an Atoning Sacrifice for OUR SINS and NOT for OUR SINS only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2:2

    Definitely the right "boundary" established in scripture for the SCOPE of God's Love!!

    Nice going!!


    And then you post text that you see in contradiction to the unlimited SCOPE already established above.

    Texts that you see as defining a "partial" God who "picks and chooses" according to arbitrary and fickle "Selection" who to love and who to hate among the lost wicked of mankind.


    Here are some "details to ignore" if one is Calvinist and is also clinging to belief in the "partial God who arbitrarily selects the FEW to love and the MANY to hate".

    #1. in the text YOU quote God applies the SAME standard to those he loves --

    This is the text YOU pick for us to observe closely --

    See it again at the end of Lev 18

    [
    See it "again" at the start of Lev 18

    Instead of the Bible portraying a "fickle God that is merciful to some while hating others" we see an IMPARTIAL GOD (Rom 2:11) that holds up the blessings and the curses for ALL to see. He is here calling Israel NOT to experience the SAME curses as the nations before them.

    He does not say "HEY - I love you wicked people but I just so happen to hate THOSE wicked people so you are in good shape no need to bother with looking at what they were doing as though it is a warning to you".

    James then points out that God hates sin

    Agreed. And the text says nothing about "this would be just fine IF the person doing it were an Israelite but not if they were a Caananite".

    It is an impartial system where God WEEPS over the lost and HATES sin.

    In this case it is God speaking of the "Ephraim" part of "Israel"

    So what does God SAY about this lost wicked "Ephraim" (indeed ISRAEL) whom the Lord hates??

    Though this point is posted 50 TIMES for this case in HOSEA regarding Ephraim STILL the Calvinist response is to IGNORE it and post around it as if it did not exist.

    The unnanswered point REMAINS!


    *******************

    Does God pick and choose? as in the PURPOSE OF GODS ELECTION...

    Romans 9

    11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

    -- Indeed He does when it comes to service, leadership and ministry!

    As "ALREADY POINTED OUT"


    Same as the point above - OVER AGAIN - leadership and ministry.

    How long must we go over that same point while Calvinists pretend not to notice the response??

    This is getting old.

    My guess is that you will pretend not to notice any of the points raised "again".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello webdog.
    I shall withdraw 'it keeps no record of wrongs' and surrender the point to you because I refuse to compare bibles in this way. You don't know and neither do I as we are not experts in Koine Greek. :cool: Smart aleck me.
    I am simply at a loss? :cool: Do you believe in a Hell where men and angels will spend forever being tortured. Where after a zillion years, I heard someone else say that the other day, where after a zillion years it is not the end of the pain and misery but it is just beginning? If you do what the Hell does love mean?
    I took it as no asccusation more out of puzzlement but then you accuse me of *TWIST*?
    Here's the twist: So I replied: So love never fails? You answer 'Correct, if...
    I asked you about the 'if'. If you don't mind again what do you mean 'if'?

    john.
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Calvinist's like to think of it as God's love FAILING if one who uses CHOICE does not CHOOSE salvation.

    So God somehow "Failed" when He created Lucifer, and Adam and Eve and all humans that choose darkness over light -- in that "Calvinist system".

    But God's SHOWS his love by choosing to LOVE a fallen sinful world (where there was NO believers) and to "GIVE His Son" for that world "As the Savior of the World" 1John 4:14.

    Then when the MANY of Matt 7 STILL refuse to accept eternal life - God WEEPS over the lost with LOVE that never fails!!

    (Calvinism loves to add "TO MANIPULATE" to any statement like "Love never fails" but that is never the context for "Love never fails".)

    In 1Cor 2:16 – we are told that we have been given “the Mind of Christ”. What then is the Mind of Christ regarding love for the lost?

    When the “impartial (Rom 2:11) unchanging (Mal 3:6) God” weeps and grieves over the lost - He is not simply pretending so we will be duped into "thinking" He loves them and works for their salvation just as He loves the saved and ministers to them, when in fact He cares nothing at all for our children and loved ones that are “not elect”.

    God’s Grieving involves tears as a parent weeps for a lost child!!

    Lament over Jerusalem
    God is sorrowful and GRIEVES for the lost and for the fact that He has done so much to win them - yet they TURN away.
    God’s Spirit is grieved by the rebellion of His CHOSEN people His HOLY nation His ROYAL priesthood. Yes even by the LOST among them – even the worst among them.
    ALL of God’s Compassion is stirred up within Him over the finally lost!

    God will be displeased with the saints IF they rejoice at the fall/judgment of the wicked!
     
  12. webdog

    webdog Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,696
    Likes Received:
    2
    Wow! Something we agree on. We aren't experts. However, there is a difference between word for word, and thought for thought translation (formal equivalence / dynamic equivalence), and for good Bible study, you can't use one exclusively.
    yes.
    Love does not rejoice in iniquity, but in the truth. The truth is that those who do not profess Christ as Lord spend eternity in hell. This is just punishment for a Holy God. God is just and righteous...and patient. Why wouldn't God love those in Hell? According to your warped belief He caused those in hell to sin to get there in the first place.
    "If" was probably a bad word to use on my part. God's love doesn't fail, even when man does. This includes when man is sentenced to hell, God is just.
     
  13. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello webdog.
    Don't worry it's not for long. :cool:
    I think you should stick with one. :cool: Told you it wouldn't be long.
    Yes? He loves them as He stomps on them? If you have time some time I would be interested in your definition of love man. :cool:
    Then He rejoices over those in Hell is not a zillion miles from my position. :cool:
    I do not judge Him for as a man I disagree with Him. :cool:
    He is also the Omniscient Creator.
    Because the way He treats them might seem to suggest otherwise to us sensitive ones.
    I mean that a month confined on a soft fluffy feather bed is bad enough but everlasting Hell man! :cool: Sunglasses not allowed. Mercy is in rather short supply and mercy is a key componant of love isn't it. :cool: I don't want you to think I'm some bleeding heart liberal when it comes to crime and punishment, unless of course I'm up before the beak. You shall not let a murderer live is a very important scripture. I believe rape and child molesters should receive the same punishment for their crime but what crime did old Mrs Bloggs do in bringing up her kids as decently as she could and living a quiet life but has to spend eternity in Hell for what? Not bowing down to the One that cast her adrift on a mutinous ship in the first place? Regardless of your stand we are all faced with that truth. We are on the ship of fools because we were conceived not through choice. We could not choose Eden nor anything but a world of grief was our lot was it not?
    Me? What gives you that impression? :cool: My God is Sovereign. Of course it's a warped belief we are sinners and want to be sovereign.
    You can say that to me but you cannot level such infamy at other Calvinists. My brothers are less warped than me. HaHa!
    What you mean 'probably'?
    Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. 8 Charity never faileth... 1 Cor 13:4-8
    And it's a kindness then for the punishment, it contains no rehabitating quality, it is not to teach a lesson, and love faileth because He sent His Son to die for us in hope and His hope you would have me believe was futile in so many peoples lives?
    You say God is just because you have a nice clean publicity machine at work. All the Calvinistic types have is the stuff Head office puts out. Your machine has been abusy scrubbing Sweet Jesus into existence but my publicity just says that I'm to think that He is unjust. A Despot. My Rock and my Salvation couldn't give a monky's what we think of Him He scoffs at us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Ps 2:4.
    You err. God's word goes out and accomplishes what it was sent for. You are saying that all those years with just the KJV no one but the scholars could have a good bible study? A good understanding was not possible for the serfs? And I don't really understand the concept of bible study as it is my Father talking to me.
    john.
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    quote:Webdog
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    According to your warped belief He caused those in hell to sin to get there in the first place.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Here we see the joy of God sending some to hell and others to save and BOTH groups perfectly performing His will – a monstrous idea that would get you “locked up” if you treated a family member this way (according to the Calvinist quote below)

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I press the point of “Calvinism taken to its logical conclusion” with John after seeing the post above – and he responds.


    quote: Bob said
    ________________________________________
    -- I thought you had agreed that God is not the author/designer/master/originator/maker of sin?
    ________________________________________
    </font>[/QUOTE]
    In that same post

    quote: Bob asks
    ________________________________________
    But isn't it your point in quoting Isaiah 63 that God is actually hardening your heart and making you wander away from Him?
    ________________________________________

    JohnP replies: Of course and that is a fact

    http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1572/4.html#000055
     
  15. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello Bob.
    I noticed I replied but you don't see the things you miss.
    No clever trap can catch me out because I know what I believe and I defend it openly which is more than certain ones will do. I am not like some who boasts of his connections with Calvinists and who shares their views with others but is afraid of showing those Calvinists where they can witness exactly what he has said about them. :cool: That's cool. It is self condemnatory not to let us see your output about us and it is not polite to talk behind peoples backs. I pray you have kept and continue to keep in mind the verse below as you go about your cut 'n' pasting scribblings and as for me the question is removed from you.
    Whoever slanders his neighbor in secret, him will I put to silence; whoever has haughty eyes and a proud heart, him will I not endure. PS 101:5.

    john.
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Johnny - I post your work on here all the time - do you not see it??

    I find your entier line of misdirection -- fascinating if not typical johnP.

    Now back to our story --

    ===========================

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by webdog:
    I responded to 1 Corinthians on the other thread...and no, love never fails. Maybe your view of God's love would fail, but mine doesn't.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Calvinist's like to think of it as God's love FAILING if one who uses CHOICE does not CHOOSE salvation.

    So God somehow "Failed" when He created Lucifer, and Adam and Eve and all humans that choose darkness over light -- in that "Calvinist system".

    But God's SHOWS his love by choosing to LOVE a fallen sinful world (where there was NO believers) and to "GIVE His Son" for that world "As the Savior of the World" 1John 4:14.

    Then when the MANY of Matt 7 STILL refuse to accept eternal life - God WEEPS over the lost with LOVE that never fails!!

    (Calvinism loves to add "TO MANIPULATE" to any statement like "Love never fails" but that is never the context for "Love never fails".)

    In 1Cor 2:16 – we are told that we have been given “the Mind of Christ”. What then is the Mind of Christ regarding love for the lost?

    When the “impartial (Rom 2:11) unchanging (Mal 3:6) God” weeps and grieves over the lost - He is not simply pretending so we will be duped into "thinking" He loves them and works for their salvation just as He loves the saved and ministers to them, when in fact He cares nothing at all for our children and loved ones that are “not elect”.

    God’s Grieving involves tears as a parent weeps for a lost child!!
     
  17. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello Bob.
    I do see posts of yours carrying the truth from time to time :cool: but if you say 'all' the time, well, I must say the word requires modifying, but I surely see the way you use the word as hyperbolic. :cool:
    Indeed you have not noticed my misdirections. :cool: If you had I might now be the one under the cosh.
    The not typical might be misleading and might puff me up. Not typical as to Calvinists but I use your techniques to talk to you and I use them better than you. I am full of guile. A gift horse from me to you. :cool:
    It is our story.
    This is wrong. God's love never fails.
    To me, you base your scribblings on a falseness and you career along without any fear or knowledge, you remind me of Mr Mcgoo :cool: oblivious of all but what you believe to be fact.
    A Saviour saves and where there was nothing but the Holy One there was no suffering. That's the rub.
    A Saviour saves and where there was nothing but the Holy One there was no suffering. That's the rub.
    Love never fails needs no context so can't be manipulated but I admit guilty in not believing Esau was loved regardless of the fact that God says He was hated. :cool:
    That's a question. :cool:
    And I don't care to know what that is about. :cool:

    john.
     
  18. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0
    I can see why you might need to say that.

    But the point remains - you can not hold to conflicting views and then "blame God".

    Why not pick one consistent position instead?

    ***********************
    For the 1001 time. Why is it that I must believe only as you Bob? You keep telling me i can not believe the way I do. Yet it is God that I follow, and not your Bob. Is it me that calls my view conlicting? No it is you trying to crame your doctrine down my mouth. You ask me to answer a few things..I DO..and just as I said..you twist the meanings trying to force me into your "wild" way of looking at the Bible. I have never meet anyone that passover verses as if they were not there...or change meanins of words, as much as you. Then on top of this...you think it is OTHERS that overlook it.....and you in such boldness try to force us to believe your twisted doctrine. Look above at your twisted views...

    1)...Blaim God? Blaim God for what? For His word? Yes..he wrote the word. Remember Bob what i just did...I POSTED VERSES. HELLO??


    2) conflicting views??? To you maybe...but i can not help it if you can not understand. I was the ones that posted the verses...it is my doctrine...they do not conflict in my doctrine...so you feel it is ME HELLO!! Bob...if you don't understand...why is it my conflict?

    WHY MUST ALL BELIEVE YOUR TWIST VIEWS????


    Why not just stick with a less conflicted view of scripture and stop blaming God for the contradictions you claim to find?
    *******************
    SEE!!

    1) you are so strange. It is you that does not understand...so you think it is others. My Verse does not contradict. Now you may not understnad this...and this is clear after months on this board...but dont blaim me or Gods Word. I POSTED VERSES&gt;&gt; HELLO????

    2) I CLAIM TO FIND?? HELLO?? I posted verse...I picked the verses to post...and just as I called you...you post "BOBS WORDS". Yet it is I and others that do not understand...PLEASE


    Is that really so distasteful??
    *********************
    You have been very distasteful trying to cram your twisted veiws on others. Telling other what WE MUST believe. Tell me I CAN NOT believe the verse...yes verse....VERSES i posted. Not james words....not bobs words...GODS OWN WORDS. you think they contradict. Remember Bob...i do not say this...it is YOU

     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    But God's SHOWS his love by choosing to LOVE a fallen sinful world (where there was NO believers) and to "GIVE His Son" for that world "As the Savior of the World" 1John 4:14.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    You dodged the point "again".

    Lets go back to it so you can have another try at answering the point raised.

    God SO LOVED the World.. (That would be the FALLEN world. The world of SINFUL doomed humanity).

    That HE CHOSE TO GIVE His Son (that would mean an introduction of THE GOSPEL of Jesus Christ into that doomed world scenario)

    This means the circular argument that God was looking at some subset of BELIEVERS in that doomed world and THEN decided to offer THEM the Gospel -- is totally bogus!

    This just isn't that hard.

    You need to find a way to actually answer the point being raised.

    I do not expect you to agree with the point - but you should be able to address it.

    OR Calvinism should be able to -- in some way.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    I keep telling you that you can not create contradiction and then blame them on God.

    I keep telling you that if you are going to HOLD to the TRUTH that God actually does LOVE ALL -- then you can not simply MIX WITH THAT TRUTH -- the Calvinist fallacy that God arbitrarily selects some to HATE -- and then blame that obvious contradiction on GOD!

    At some point you have to take the blame for your own action in mixing the two instead of blaming God.

    When I point out your contradiction - you seem to respond with "Blame God" as in "God can do as He pleases EVEN if it is contradictory".

    My point all along has been that GOD never made the contradictory claims about hating people that you claim and a CLOSE REVIEW of the texts has SHOWN this to be true.

    Starting with Romans 9 and Malachi 1.


    Indeed and you point to the contradiction as "Well it is God and He can do as He pleases" AS IF GOD is responsible for the fallacies of Calvlinism!!

    That is hardly going to be a compelling position.

    Interesting rabbit trail.

    It has been shown REPEATEDLY that you duck and dodge the HATE for PARENTS in Luke 14 and how this ALSO ties in to the idea of HATE for Ephraim in Hosea 9 that has God crying out "WITH all His COMPASSIONS STIRRED UP " in Hosea 11 over that SAME Ephraim!!

    I SHOW that it is in that SAME sense that we find "EDOM" addressed as Esau in MAlachi 1.

    Basically I GIVE the harmonized view and USE the inconvenient "details" that you faithfully "duck and dodge" on HATE in both the OT and NT as God uses it.

    This is the way to avoid the contradiction - that you gleefully leap at and then choose to blame God for..

    Pretending that "God loves ALL without exception" and "GOD chooses to HATE INFANTS as the whim strikes him" are views to be held "without contradiction" -- is not a sane rationale.

    Is it??

    As I said... "pretending"??

    Wonderful - since I have asked you to SHOW how they do not conflict about 10 times.

    Is this where you actually "do that" instead of blaming God with the "Well it is God - and He can do as He pleases" dodge?

    (As if that convinces us NOT to LOOK at the contradiction any more)

    This is so easy - obvious and simple ... ANYONE can easily read it and get it.

    The emperor has no clothes sir.

    And you seem to think it helps your case to charge that my pointing out the OBVIOUS here is just "my twisted view" of something.

    The problem you have here is far too obvious and clear for that kind of coverup to work.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
Loading...