Who Does God WANT to Save?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by DrJamesAch, Jul 11, 2013.

  1. DrJamesAch

    DrJamesAch
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Messages:
    1,427
    Likes Received:
    0
    We've heard it over and over again on this thread that God only saves the elect, and that God only WANTED to save the elect. Calvinism notoriously interprets John 3:16 "For God so love the world" as that Jesus was speaking ONLY to the elect.

    However, there's a problem with this view. If Calvinism is intent on this kind of exegesis, then it needs to be consistently applied to all of Scripture. You can't limit the audience in John 3:16, and then expand the audience elsewhere. Either John 3:16 was limited to those elect in that context, or the Calvinist must concede that it actually does apply to the whole world (1 John 2:2).

    Now if it applies ONLY to those elect in John 3:16, then the Calvinist faces a conundrum in Isaiah 53:5-6

    "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."

    So who is the audience here? ISRAEL. Thus if the Calvinist interpretation of John 3:16 applies only to elect Gentiles, then the same logic of interpretation applied to Isaiah 53 would have the "we" "us" "our" of verses 5-6 limiting the death and atonement of Christ to the Jews.

    Now where else in the Bible does God state who He desires to save, and to whom is salvation offered?

    1 Timothy 2:3-4

    "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
    Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

    Unfortunately, the universalists misinterpret this as God saving everyone, and the Calvinist can't interpret it at all. It is a simple statement that God DESIRES to have all to be saved, not that He will save all, but that He wills all to be saved.

    1 Timothy 4:10

    "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe."

    Jesus IS the Saviour of all men, but not all men RECEIVE Him as Saviour. Notice the difference between "Saviour of ALL MEN" and "SPECIALLY those that believe". There are 2 different categories here and Jesus is Saviour over BOTH. The Calvinist will reply, "but that makes Jesus a universalist. He can't be a Saviour and not save". WRONG.

    If a man is caught in a burning building, and a fireman is on a ladder and offers the man a way out, that fireman is the victims only hope and answer to escaping the fire. Even if the victim doesn't take the fireman's hand, that fireman is STILL that person's "Saviour" because the Fireman is the only way out, whether the victim accepts that or not.

    2 Peter 3:9

    "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

    Here the Calvinist focuses on "us-ward" and says this verse is only talking about believers. How foolish to think that God is worred about BELIEVERS PERISHING and that His will is to call those to repentance that HAVE ALREADY REPENTED.

    The Calvinist must force an interpretation of this verse that mangles the plain, clear, and common sense view of the verse, that God's will is that ALL come to Him in repentance.

    I John 2:2, " And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

    1 John 4:14 "And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world."

    Ezekiel 33:11 "Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

    Hebrews 2:9, " But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."

    John 4:42, "And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world."

    And finally, compare this statement of the Baptist Confession to John 3:17.

    Of God's Eternal Decree, Westminster Confession ch 3:

    "III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death."

    Now John 3:17:

    "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

    The Calvinist holds that God determined the damnation of all "non elect" but John 3:17 clearly says that Christ did not come to condemn the world.

    Christ clearly came to die FOR ALL, and though He is in fact, the Saviour and Fireman to ALL, only those who willingly RECEIVE HIM FIRST (John 1:12) have to power to become the sons of God and are sealed by the Holy Spirit AFTER they believe (Eph 1:13), which ALL, elect or not, can accept or reject.

    " And the Lord said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them?" Numbers 14:11
     
    #1 DrJamesAch, Jul 11, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 11, 2013
  2. DrJamesAch

    DrJamesAch
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Messages:
    1,427
    Likes Received:
    0
    Predicted Responses

    I will go ahead here and now and predict the responses from the determinsts so that they can just cut and paste one of their responses and save time typing it out.

    *Those verse don't mean that (with no explanation of what they DO mean)

    *Your theology is warped, and skewed

    *Typical Arminian view

    *You are calling Jesus a universalist

    *Election is clearly taught in the Bible and the Calvinists have it right, and you are wrong.

    *You don't understand Calvinism

    *Your hatred for Calvinists is obvious

    *Will you ever stop promoting your 'agenda'?

    *John 3:16 clearly means only the elect

    *1 Peter 1:4, Ephesians 2:1-5, Romans 9:21-23, Acts 13:47, Romans 8:29-30

    *Your exegesis is flawed and illogical

    *You should study the Bible more

    *God knows the future so He saves people because of His foreknowledge

    *So did Christ die for those who go to hell?

    *If Christ died for all, then He failed as a Saviour

    *"You are a joke to all rational thought"

    *Fill in the blank_____________
     
    #2 DrJamesAch, Jul 11, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 11, 2013
  3. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    He wants to save all who come to Him in faith believing.
     
  4. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jesus also wants to save those who refuse to come in faith.

    Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
     
  5. HisWitness

    HisWitness
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2012
    Messages:
    1,483
    Likes Received:
    0
    how about this one--you have made a mockery of the person and power of YAH!!!
     
  6. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    He didn't quote YAH; he quoted from the NT!
    Do you by chance have a fictional god?
    Tell me where this god exists in the NT?
     
  7. DrJamesAch

    DrJamesAch
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Messages:
    1,427
    Likes Received:
    0
    אם אתה רוצה לדבר בעברית, תן לנו לדון בעברית
     
  8. jbh28

    jbh28
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,761
    Likes Received:
    0
    כי הוא מצחיק
     
  9. HisWitness

    HisWitness
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2012
    Messages:
    1,483
    Likes Received:
    0
    you use the title God and I use his name that is recorded in psalm 68-4.

    Or maybe you are saying that the OT is not for us anymore ??? and that his name there isn't the name that he really goes by ?????

    You keep blabbing its not in the scripture--when its plainly in Psalm 68-4.

    instead of trying to find the reason for 2 more infractions so you can ban me--why don't you actually address the scripture provided ???
     
  10. DrJamesAch

    DrJamesAch
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Messages:
    1,427
    Likes Received:
    0
    Why don't you actually answer the OP, or carry on your debate with me in Hebrew since you know it so well!
     
  11. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    Psalm 68 is NOT in the NT. As many people as have told you that you still do not believe it, but it is true. Psalms was written over a thousand years before Christ was born. It is NOT in the NT!!!
    HIS name is JESUS.
    He shall save us from our sins.
    By his name; there is no other name whereby you shall be saved.
    You must "Believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ (and then) you will be saved."
    No other name will do.
    YAW cannot save you; only Jesus Christ can.
    You are the one babbling; unless you have called on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, you are not saved.
    Examine yourself to see whether you are in the faith.
    I have addressed every sentence you have provided--point by point.
    Why don't you reciprocate??
     
  12. HisWitness

    HisWitness
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2012
    Messages:
    1,483
    Likes Received:
    0
    hes the one with the problem of not regarding the name of the Father---YAH Psalm 68-4 plain and day in that verse.

    im not going against truth or Baptist doctrine--im quoting the scripture just as it is written for us . :wavey::wavey:
     
  13. RLBosley

    RLBosley
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,752
    Likes Received:
    0
    What I find interesting is that you demand he address the scripture provided and yet you refuse to do the same thing in every thread you take part in. You completely bailed on the tithing thread when you had no argument to counter the Biblical truth and simply resorted to saying we have no idea what you were talking about. So either "put up or shut up."

    Ach: I appreciate your post and think you bring up some good points. I fall in the middle and believe both Calvinism and Arminianism are wrong.

    So question: what exactly is your understanding of election and predestination?
     
  14. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    0
    I thought HIS name according to OT scripture was YHWH, transliterated as YAHWEH, not simply YAH.
     
  15. HisWitness

    HisWitness
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2012
    Messages:
    1,483
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have answered plainy and you don't see- the title God is used in the NT--

    if I was gonna say the name of the Son in the NT it would be Yahushua.


    when Yahushua said that he had received those that were given unto him of the Father(then the father would be YAH)


    is YAH and God not the same person ???
     
  16. HisWitness

    HisWitness
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2012
    Messages:
    1,483
    Likes Received:
    0
    have you even read Psalm 68-4 it plainly spells Jah--Yah

    either we have error translations in our bibles or some here are NOT regarding the Name of the Father ?? which is it ??????
     
  17. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    YAH is a KJV transliteration of an OT name.
    It isn't even accurate. Are you KJVO?
    But the NT commands us to believe on the NAME of the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Why have you no answer to this. We are not Jews.
    Psalm 68:4 was written for the Jews. It is not addressed to the Gentiles.
     
  18. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    Psalm 68:4
    From the Jewish Orthodox Bible:

    4 (5) Sing unto Elohim, sing praises to Shmo; extol Him that rideth on the clouds by Shmo Hashem, and rejoice before Him.
    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm 68:4&version=OJB
     
  19. RLBosley

    RLBosley
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,752
    Likes Received:
    0
    You answered nothing. Like normal, you make accusations and then when you are shown to be in error you claim we are blind and ignorant then leave.
     
  20. HisWitness

    HisWitness
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2012
    Messages:
    1,483
    Likes Received:
    0
    well I do argue that jesus is a English translation--while I prefer to use the Hebrew translation.since he was a born Hebrew.

    im talking about the Son of YAH when I refer to Yahushua.

    just because I choose to use what I believe to be the more accurate name of the Son.

    the english translation takes away from meaning and sounding of the true name in my opinion .

    The Son had the same name as Joshua in the OT.

    tell me how does jesus spell Joshua ?? tell me how does jesus in any form SOUND like Joshua ???

    Joshua is even recorded in the NT.
    if they have the same name ??? why translate the Son's Name to something different that what it was ???

    why also record Joshua in the NT if it wasn't a proper name and had to be translated for the Son ???.

    in some places they place jesus for Joshua by mistake ????in NT

    the whole point is that if Joshua was good enough---why translate the Son's name to something different ?????
     

Share This Page

Loading...