Who is Bob Jones

No it's not. He said on national television that whites dating blacks was one way that the "one world government" would come about and give rise to the Antichrist.

Sorry, I was just going by his views on Catholics and intermingling (or, "mongrelization", if you prefer) of the races.

Among who? Most rational people recognize this guy for the whacko that he is.

I agree, to an extent, but some things are wrong no matter when they take place.

And they would be right but that still doesn't excuse what they stood for (and presumably still do).

That's like saying, "You know, when you look at the Inquisition, the Holocaust really wasn't so bad".

We are barbaric by any standard. That doesn't excuse barbarism.

Look, the no interracial dating policy was instituted in the mid fifties ('56, I believe). The first black student wasn't admitted until the 70's.

These things are what they are and you're free to interpret it any way you want.

Mike

 

Based on his relationship with certain loyalist groups, his treatment of Catholics, his efforts to derail the GFA and his opposition to policing reforms.

Mike</font>[/QUOTE]Your own President and his ambassadors have a relationship with certain loyalist groups, every year he invites them and the Irish Republican terrorists to celebrate St. Patrick's day at the Whitehouse. Paisley has a good track record in his personal treatment of Catholics - do not confuse Catholics with Irish Republicans. I don't know what the GFA is, so won't comment. The fast majority of Protestant and Unionist people in N. Ireland oppose many of the Police Reforms because they are designed to appease terrorists, and humiliate a very courageous police force. I doubt if you would accept a police force in the USA on the same basis as we are expected to accept the reforms here. I don't wish to digress from the thread, but if you wish to debate N. Irish issues I will be glad to.

 

Our music director and his wife are BJU alums. A more godly family I have not met. I wish every Christian school turned out folks as well educated, and fundamental bible believers as them.

They are also very helpful in our home-schooling groups

I won't speak about BJ sr, as I never met him. I did hear some great things spoken by his grandson on Larry king once. But I didn't hear that thing about the AntiChrist rising. Can you find that quote ? I think you are taking something that his grandfather felt, and bringing it to us out of context. Here's what he said...

"KING: All right, why -- explain this, why they can't date.

JONES: Well, being a Bible believing institution, Larry, we try to base things on Bible principle. The problem we have today is that our principle is so greatly misunderstood. People think we don't let them date because we are racist, in other words to be racist you have to treat people differently. We don't. We don't let them date, because we were trying, as an example, to enforce something, a principle that is much greater than this.

We stand against the one-world government, against the coming world of anti-Christ, which is a one world system of blending, of all differences, of blending of national differences, economic differences, church differences, into a big one ecumenical world. The Bible is very clear about this.

We said, you know, way back years ago, when we first had a problem, which was -- by the way, we started this principle, back in the mid-'50s, I was a college student at BJU at the time and it was with an Asian and Caucasian is -- we didn't even have black students for another 15 years. So it was not put there as a black thing, I think people need to understand that.

KING: So the fear of one world relates back to two people dating?

JONES: Now, we realize that a inter-racial marriage is not going to bring in the world the anti-Christ by any means, but if we as Christians stand for Christ and not anti-Christ, and we see -- we are against the one world church. We are against one economy, one political system.

We see what the Bible says about this, so we say, OK, if they're going to blend this world -- and inter-racial marriage is a genetic blending, which is a very definite sort of blending -- we said as -- let's put this policy in here, because we are against the one world church and, way back, 17 years ago when I was on your program, I was saying on programs all across America, we are not going to the Supreme Court fighting for our rule and our -- we are fighting for our right to it. There is a religious freedom issue, that's all we ever fought for."

I'll admit, at first read, it could look like a racist statement, but I don't view it as such. I think we need to look at the whole statement. They were fighting ecuminism, on every front.

The entire transcript is here...

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0003/03/lkl.00.html

Mike, you have lost a lot of credibility with me in this thread. I don't expect you to care, but your refusal to back up anything you say here speaks volumes. The people I know that have gone there are not nearly as hateful as your posts against them.

Honestly, as much as we have in common, and as much as I like talking to you, I think you might be a pretty hateful guy. And if you quoted the Bible every once in a while, instead of Robert Hunter, or Bob Dylan, people might take what you say seriously.

About BJU, I'm not going to commit one way or another. I have seen good and bad things, but I just hate ad-homenim(sp ?) attacks with nothing to back them up.

(I edited this post 8 times.)

[ October 24, 2002, 06:50 AM: Message edited by: Bro. Curtis ]

 

Honestly?

I've been looked down on from day one here. Either for the people I associate with, where I work, the music I listen to, my politics, the Bible version I use, etc. My posts have been censored for completely bogus reasons. So, outside of two or three people here, I stopped caring what you guys think of me a long time ago.

I gave you the link where I found that quote and just because I'm not going to take Larry up on some schoolyard dare, I really don't care if you think I have credibility or not.

I never said anything about the people who went there did I? (No!) But I don't expect you to "back that up" when it's so easy twist my words to paint me in a negative light.

I expected more from you, of all people, than WingsofFire, but I'm starting to wonder if your twisting my words in the "homosexuality" thread all those months ago was no mere accident.

Yes. I do hate the fact that BJU would treat blacks as somehow inferior and I hate the fact that they would give a platform to someone like Paisley and I hate the fact that Paisley has no qualms at all about doing the most awful things in the name of Christianity.

I do quote the Bible when it's appropriate but, honestly, it either usually doesn't come up or someone else has already quoted the appropriate verse.

What's really ironic is that I've been commended by fellow posters on Crosswalk.com precisely because I do use scripture in my arguments.

For future reference, the Robert Hunter quote tracks quite well with John 4:13-15, thank you.

[ October 25, 2002, 03:00 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

I think there's a bit of difference between a world leader reaching out to two sides in a conflict and Paisley's hand holding with thug groups.

I don't.

You live in Northern Ireland and you don't know what the GFA is???

Actually, we discussed that in another thread and found it not to be the case.

I grew up in Alabama, where, at one time, there was no such thing as a black police officer.

The result was an "us against them" mentality on the part of the police and different standards for how black communities and white communities were policed.

Not much different from the Protestant controlled RUC.

Thank you, but after seeing how my so called "friend" would stab me in the back in the above thread, I'll leave you guys alone to support Jones, Paisley, Billy Wright, Ronnie Flanagan, or whoever you like.

Mike

[ October 24, 2002, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

It wasn't a school yard dare. You presented as fact a point that I have never seen anywhere and it contrary to everything I have seen. I was simply asking for documentation. If Graham said that in his book, I would like to know where so that I can look it up.

This has never been the case at BJU. Did you know that BJSr tried to start a school for blacks in times when it was unpopular to do that? He wanted black people to be able to get the same kind of education that BJ (college at the time I think) was offering. Racial desegregation did not take place in the south until the late 60s. BJU, in accordance with every major school in the South, did not admit blacks during those years. That does not defend it as right but it is certainly hard to cast stones at them unless you are willing to cast them at every other school. The heart of the issue on segregation of the school seems to be the Joneses' commitment to obedience. The law of the land was segregation and, whether right or wrong, they believed that Christians were to subject themselves to the governmental powers that are ordained of God in accordance with Rom 13 and 1 Peter 2. They agreed that if a law was wrong, every legitimate means should be used to change it. Civil disobedience was (and is) not an option for obedient Christians.

 

Smoke-eater, I don't know of anyone who looks down on you. I know a lot of us who disagree with you from time to time, but I think you'r over-reacting a little.

All anybody asked is that you back up what you say.

I have noticed a trend with you, it seems anybody can say anything they want until they speak out against the Catholic Church. That seems to really get your knickers twisted. Why is that ? I certainly hope you don't think that we will stop just because one person doesn't like it.

And the homosexuality thread, many months ago ? Puhleeze. Somebody called it sin, I said an amen, and you went completely nuts on me. That's what happened.

And you'r credibility, that's something that can be fixed. If I have learned anything here, it's to research my posts, before I put them up. Or to quote Bob Dylan..."know my song well, before I start singin'..."

You have had some great posts here, I have even learned a few things from some of them. Just because I disagree with you here, doesn't mean much. I have disagreeed with just about everyone here at one point or another, but am still able to discuss things with them, to work towards the common goal of lifting up the name of Jesus Christ.

And from what I see, that's what happens at BJU. The name of Jesus Christ is lifted up.

Take a couple days and simmer down. And come back. Please.

 

I have a school teacher who went to Bob Jones. He is a good man.
I have great respect for the great preacher Bob Jones Sr.
I do not though have such respect for his school because they have gone liberal in some places. But their policy on dating I believe is right. I am not prejudice against blacks ,but it is not just a black/white issue but the rule is for any race. I think races should not mix that means not white with black or any other race. I think God made all men equal ,but I dont think races should mix.

 

This is a joke right?

some memoriable quotes from our friends at BJU:

- Dr. Bob Jones Sr

- Bob Jones III

source

some more....

source

and more....

source

 

I looked up your sources and didn't see the first comment. Could you research that one some more ?

Also, I keep seeing "the book says". If you want, I could probably find a book that says the world is flat, the Bible is a lie, God doesn't exist...etc. I saw no first-hand accounts.

And what is so awful about calling the RCC a cult ? Isn't that what it is ?

Sorry, but you going to have to do better, if you want to change any minds.

 

Hi Curtis

sure - try
http://www.reporternews.com/2000/opinion/jones0305.html
http://www.cephasministry.com/baptists_money_changers.html
http://www.shepherd-express.com/shepherd/21/9/this_and_that/letters.html

a google search will turn up plenty more references.

um? I don't really understand what you are getting at here - there is documented evidence of BJU colaborating with the Klan - the book I referenced is highly respected - here is a quick review

source

Do you not accept the research behind this book as credible? what do you base this on? have you read the book? done any research into this yourself? are you an expert in this field

mind generally have to be open to be changed. What more evidence do you require?

[ October 25, 2002, 06:25 AM: Message edited by: InHim2002 ]

 

I saw no direct evidence of him collaberating with the clan. I saw somebody say he collaberated, but no evidence that would stand up in a court. That's all I said.

"The book says" is not evidence.

No, I don't believe I will read the book. I can just ask my music director, but I don't think I'll do that either. And I know if I show him this, I know he won't waste his time responding..

In your links, I got as far as being accused of Bigotry and hate because I reject the RCC's heretical teachings. Talk about a closed mind. I'm not a bigot, and don't hate anyone. But I do fight ecumenism, and will continue. It is an enemy of Biblical Christianity.

[ October 25, 2002, 06:32 AM: Message edited by: Bro. Curtis ]

 

'somebody' - who happens to be a professor at the university of Alabama!

Okay how about "this respected historian says"?

out of interest did you know Bibb Graves dormatory at BJU is named after a grand wizard of the KKK?:

source

The specific allegation in the book is that Bob Jones accepted $1600 donation from the klan, this is accepted as true by every source I have come across - do you have any evidence that this is not true?

well perhaps if you would even examine the evidence you might just find some....

Yes - your music teacher would be a good place to go for a rebuttal to the good professors book wouldn't he?

would you, like Bob Jones (who as I understand is not a racist), rather see "a nigger as president than a Catholic in the White House?"

[ October 25, 2002, 07:24 AM: Message edited by: InHim2002 ]

 

No. Sadly, bigotry will always be with us.

That's not what happened at all.

First of all, I was one of the people who called it sin.

Every time I would state my beliefs about homosexuality, you accused me of supporting it, even though I explained many times that I did not.

You know, you might have a little more credibility if you quoted the Bible instead of Bob Dylan.

As long as they're not Catholic, right?

Yes I can see the way they reach out to Catholics, gays and minorities.

[ October 25, 2002, 09:37 AM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

In Him/SmokeEater,

You have interesting choices in "sources". To choose someone's self-declared enemies as objective critics says more about them and you than it does about Bob Jones or BJU. If I am not mistaken, the target of several of the articles wasn't BJU but GW Bush. To consider liberal zealots objective sources on conservatives is as wise as trusting NAMBLA to give sex education to 2nd graders.

I am not deluded into thinking they are or have been right on every issue. But I am certain that they haven't been wrong on every issue. What is irrefutable is that 10's or 100's of thousands of black people have come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ as a direct result of BJ and BJU. Can any of the sources you cited make the same claim? What greater expression of love can there be than to bring the gospel to a lost sinner?

BTW, Catholicism and Mormonism ARE cults if the standard is the Bible. Both demand faith in a human institution in order to reach God. I don't want to divert this discussion into this debate but you brought it up.

[ October 25, 2002, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: Scott J ]

 

I'm not aware of my source declaring any such emnity. Please elaborate.

No, actually, it was about BoZoIII and his appearance on Larry King.

I don't know their political views. Please elaborate.

Zealotry is zealotry and neither one of them, by their very definition, are objective.

Why should we discount "liberal" zealots (which I still do not know that the source I cited is), yet embrace "conservative" or "fundamentalist" zealots and expect them to be objective just because they agree with us?

To consider BoZo or Paisley objective is more than just a little naive.

Other than their bizzare belief that interracial dating will somehow help usher in a one world government and give rise to the Antichrist and their vitriol towards Catholics and the Catholic church, I don't know that I have any disagreements with them on the essentials of the faith (yes, I know. Augustine was Catholic.)

My problems with them are political and I believe they've flat out missed the boat.

(a) Based on what?
(b) the Cathoic Church has won many more people to Christ, yet BoZo says they are the Antichrist

They're newspapers, not an evangelistic outreach.

I agree.

What better way to bring the Gospel to a lost sinner than to reach out to him rather than vilify him and push him away?

This has not been my experience in the Catholic Church and I feel confident that there are millions all over the world who would say the same.

 

Yes - you may not have come across respectable sources before - anyhow, can you address the point that they raise or not?

Did Bob Jones say:

or not because that is plainly racist - would you not agree?

and?

They don;t have to be objective - unless you claim that they are lying (which if you wrote it here would, obviously, be libellious).

I quoted a respected peer reviewed book that was written by a professor at the university of Alabama that shows the links between BJU and the KKK - do you have evidence to refute his research? If not I suggest that you concede the point and admit that, in the past, BJU recieved money from the KKK.

It is simply not acceptable to call this man a liar without havong reviewed his work or research - wouldn't you agree?

It wouldn't be reasonable to expect that anyone would be right on every issue - the point is that BJU is a racist institution that was started and funded by racists and that practiced racial discrimation until very recently - by the way that is not just the opinion of the academic community it was the opinion of the supreme court in the BJU vs The United States case.

Let me quote from the above linked document:

are you seriously telling me that BJU is not racist? that rule stayed in force until 2000 - the year 2000 and they would not permit interracial dating!

No what is irrefutable is that Bob Jone University is a racist institution, founded by racists and funded by racists.

I agree. A pity that, in the words of the Supreme Court:

source

oh regarding the KKK donation - the source for that claim is:
"Politics, Society, and the Klan in Alabama, 1915-1949"
Glenn Feldman

You can find it here on Amazon.com

[ October 25, 2002, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: InHim2002 ]

 

Then every other school was wrong too. However, they at least changed long before BJU. I find your line of reasoning astonishing. I do not believe avoiding civil disobedience was the motivation of BJU. Or they would have changed long ago. In 2000, a young man I have personally known for over 20 years was expelled for spending time with a Chinese girl.

If we expect to have liberal Christians say that homosexuality is wrong, we should admit the sins of "conservative" Christians.

Karen

 

I don't know how I missed this thread or I would have been in on it earlier.
InHim,Mike, Karen - thanks for sticking to your guns.
The sources that have been given are credible. BJ is and has been racist. To say this is not so is to entertain revisionist notions to say the least. There is no doubt about ties with the KKK and their recently changed dating policies speak volumes.
Supporters tout the great Christians churned out at BJU, but turn a blind eye to the graduates that have plenty of negative things to say about policies of race and other issues.
The fact they refuse to get accreditation also speaks volumes.

 

If I believed every report I have read, or rumor I heard, or story on CNN that states a source as saying, that a public figure has a racist history, I would have to believe that the following people are racist...

Billy Graham
Martin Luther
Jimmy Carter
Bill AND Hillary Clinton
George Washington
Jesse Jackson
Charles Barlkey

The list is endless.

Mike, the Bob Dylan thing was a joke. But if you want a good verse...

"Prove all things, hold fast that which is good." 1Thessalonians 5:21

Mike, you calling me a bigot is laughable. You don't know what you are talking about. People do have a right to disagree with you. You don't have to like it.

[ October 26, 2002, 06:20 AM: Message edited by: Bro. Curtis ]