Who is Jesus referring to?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by icthus, May 13, 2005.

  1. icthus

    icthus
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Messages:
    1,114
    Likes Received:
    0
    The passage is from Luke 13:23-24 (read the context)

    "Then said one unto Him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And He said unto them, strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able"

    "strive" , says Jesus. Know what the Greek says? "agonizomai", from where we get our English "agonize". Dr J H Thayer renders it, " to endeavor with strenuous zeal, strive, to obtain something". Ardnt and Gingrich say: " strain every nerve to enter "

    What does this say of "Unconditional Election"? What does this say of the "elect"? Is this something that they have to do, or, is it for the non-elect? Does not the language used by Jesus Himself show that He demands that we "make every effort" to get saved. Who said that we do nothing because it has all been preordained for us? One this is for sure, Jesus Christ was not aware of this Calvinistic ninsense.
     
  2. whatever

    whatever
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    2,088
    Likes Received:
    0
    Nothing.

    Nobody said that.

    Do you really want to discuss it or are you just looking for an opportunity to insult someone?
     
  3. russell55

    russell55
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2002
    Messages:
    2,424
    Likes Received:
    0
    Whatever it is you're arguing against, it isn't Calvinism.
     
  4. Monergist

    Monergist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    1,122
    Likes Received:
    0
    It would be helpful if you would do a study of calvinism and it beliefs so that you wouldn't waste precious time merely arguing over what you (wrongly) think it believes. I hope you'll take this in the spirit that its given, but I see you doing that a lot.
     
  5. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    It would be of even greater help if Calvinists, would stop demanding of scripture what scripture does not declare!
     
  6. icthus

    icthus
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Messages:
    1,114
    Likes Received:
    0
    Whatever it is you're arguing against, it isn't Calvinism. </font>[/QUOTE]That shows how much you know about Calvinism
     
  7. russell55

    russell55
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2002
    Messages:
    2,424
    Likes Received:
    0
    Oh boy!

    Well....at least you've given me my belly laugh for the day....
     
  8. icthus

    icthus
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Messages:
    1,114
    Likes Received:
    0
    Oh boy!

    Well....at least you've given me my belly laugh for the day....
    </font>[/QUOTE]Another person who just like posting the silly one-liners, and can say nothing solid on what I have said in my OP.

    If the "elect" are preordained to believe on Jesus as their Lord and Saviour, why would Jesus say to them that they have to "strain every nerve" to obtain eternal life? You guys don't know what you believe, but only post here in the hope that you can insult some who do not believe in your nonsense. Cam you explain this very simple question. If the "not many" whom Jesus refers to in the passage I have given from Luke, are the "elect", then why did does He say that have to make a great effort (so in the Greek), to enter into heaven?
     
  9. whatever

    whatever
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    2,088
    Likes Received:
    0
    We have, to a person, shown you that you said nothing solid in your OP. We know what we believe. You apparently still do not know all that we believe, because you continue to argue against only half of what we teach.

    We believe that the elect are preordained to stive for eternal life, and they will certainly obtain it, by the grace of God.
     
  10. russell55

    russell55
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2002
    Messages:
    2,424
    Likes Received:
    0
    In order to say something solid about your opening post, there would have to be something solid in the opening post to argue against. You can hardly complain about the hammering skills of someone who can't nail jello to the wall.

    Because God accomplished what he ordains through means. Part of the means by which God accomplishes our salvation is our striving to obtian eternal life.

    I only post here in the hope that I can correct some of the misrepresentations of what I believe posted by people like you.

    For the same reason he admonishes people to believe. Those who believe and those who strive will obtain eternal life.
     
  11. icthus

    icthus
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Messages:
    1,114
    Likes Received:
    0
    We have, to a person, shown you that you said nothing solid in your OP. We know what we believe. You apparently still do not know all that we believe, because you continue to argue against only half of what we teach.

    THAT IS BECAUSE WHAT YOU BELIEVE IS NOT IN THE BIBLE


    We believe that the elect are preordained to stive for eternal life, and they will certainly obtain it, by the grace of God.
    </font>[/QUOTE]
     
  12. billwald

    billwald
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2000
    Messages:
    11,414
    Likes Received:
    0
    The thread asks the wrong questions. One should "strive to enter in at the strait gate" because the Church has the best social contract for life on this earth. Joining the Church on earth has social and personal benefits for the elect AND the reprobate.
     
  13. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    You presume that the church is the strait gate! However, you did not tell us where that if found in scripture.
     
  14. rc

    rc
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    1,068
    Likes Received:
    0
    Fish,

    Are really that blind to the verse you are using?
    Try looking at the end of the verse. There are many who seek... and are UNABLE to come in.... God is the only one who GIVES the ability to be saved. It's not by man's striving but God's enabling power that saves. The command to strive and to make your calling and ELECTIOIN sure is just a command to those who love HIm.
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    13 "" Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
    14 ""For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

    This is telling, for the "chosen people of God" whom God Himself had sovereignly "chosen" - for in that context - to HIS OWN (John 1) Christ speaks and declares that among EVEN that group - WIDE is the way that leads to destruction. So it is true in the earth for as Peter says “if it is with difficulty that the elect are saved..”

    Notice that the command is NOT to God telling God "please STRIVE to get your chosen people to enter by the narrow gate -" nor is the command to a select group who “can only BE the elect”. (No such filter exists). RATHER the command is to US (the group having within it – the MANY and the FEW). - To God's own church telling us to choose to STRIVE, to make effort, to focus energy on entering the narrow gate and using as the “motivation” the DANGER of not doing so (explicitly identified in the text), The danger is not “supposed” but is perfectly and explicitly stated. INSTEAD of placing the DIFFERENCE between success and failure on God who DID make some enter vs God who DID NOT make others enter nor is it on God who made some strive and did not make others strive. The command is to the group having the MANY and the FEW. The text shows plainly that God has provided for success and now it is the choice of man to choose to strive or not - choice that God gives him. Choice that is being “compelled” by the argument regarding success and failure.

    Any time argument, motive, compelling facts are used to influence a choice – you have explicit Arminianism.

    As Peter says "For if it is with difficulty that the righteous is saved - what of those who do not obey" .

    The instruction above is to the audience - to the listener - the reader.

    And then what follows is instruction to the reader/listener about OTHERS - how to judge OTHERS. Seems kind of amazing given the way this chapter starts out.
    Fascinating truths.

    #1. There is on “nice” way to get rid of all the “bad trees” from the group Christ is speaking to – so He helps them “identify” the “wolves in sheep’s clothing”.

    #2. The Gospel change is from the INSIDE OUT - not from the OUTSIDE
    in. The FRUIT (the external ACTIONS that are SEEN) are simply the RESULTS of what has ALREADY been done on the INSIDE once one chooses to believe, chooses repentance, chooses to yield to the convicting power of the Holy Spirit.

    Christ says "A bad tree bears BAD fruit" - believe it. First we must appeal to the creator - to CREATE in us a CLEAN HEART, a NEW HEART, a NEW CREATION so that OLD things are passed away and ALL things are become new - THEN we will see the FRUIT "Christ IN YOU" for it will then be "No longer I who LIVE (act, work) but Christ who LIVES IN ME". Gal 2:20.

    Yet today many "expect" the tree to be "good" even though the fruit is bad - even though one is lost in rebellion. At other times they want the "tree to be bad" even though the fruit is "good" and the person is seen to be "putting to death the deeds of the flesh by the Holy Spirit" Romans 8.

    Christ rejects those ideas in this chapter.
     
  16. rc

    rc
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    1,068
    Likes Received:
    0
    A bad tree BEARS BAD FRUIT.... understand it!

    A bad tree (natural man) can't "appeal" to the creator for a new heart... that's GOOD fruit !!!

    There has to be the miracle of regeneration to make the bad tree a GOOD tree ... to BEAR good fruit !! That's the whole point of the analogy!

    Can a lepord change his spots? ... Neither can a wicked man do ANYTHING good !
     
  17. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    Perhaps the question should be: Why do some strive to enter in while others could care less?
     

Share This Page

Loading...