Who is Rick Warren, really?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by SolaSaint, Dec 2, 2012.

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  1. SolaSaint

    SolaSaint
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    http://solasisters.blogspot.com/2012/12/church-of-tares-must-watch-video.html

    Check out this video called "Church of Tares". It is very long and many who have studied Rick Warren may know some of this information. But really, who is he really? I have personally seen the destruction (IMO) of what his Purpose Driven methods can do, and I feel that there are numerous churches throughout the world now that have modeled after Saddleback and are full of tares.

    If you have the time watch the video and tell me what you think. Warrens influence has reached around the world and I'm afraid it is void of the gospel message.
     
  2. righteousdude2

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    Good Post....

    ...I never liked Warren! It was one of those things that people sense within them when another person comes across their path. While the pastor and leaders of our church fell in love with the guy, and even held study groups based on Warren's books, I felt that we were not seeing everything when it came to this man and his ministry.

    I would not want to be seen as standing in judgment of him or his ministry, so I will stop short of saying anything else. What I sense is not tangible, let's just say [as the Newsboy said in one of their songs], "It's a Holy nudge within from the Holy Spirit!"

    I will be interested in hearing what others have to say!

    Thanks Rick for posting the hard things. After all, this kind of topic is truly above both of our "pay grades!"!" :smilewinkgrin:
     
  3. saturneptune

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    Above your paygrade?? Nah, on this board, based on other threads, some have invented the Holy Spirit detector. If you call 1-800-H-SPIRIT, they will send you one for 19.99. However, if you act within the next 15 minutes, we will double the offer if you pay for shipping.

    The detector is a small wand shaped object. You turn on the device, pointing it at the pituitary gland, as we know this is where the Spirit resides. The detect light will give a certain color based on the state of the soul.

    Solid green: Saved
    Flashing green: Will walk the aisle next church service, or for Calvinists, was already chosen
    Yellow: Quinching the Holy Spirit
    Solid red: Eternally lost
    Flashing red: Has less than five more services to walk the aisle
    Orange: Backslidden (has smoked, drank, bought lottery tickets or danced in the last 24 hours)
    Blue: Does not tithe
    Flashing blue: Takes money out of the offering plate

    The detector does not pick up on gossip and gluttony, as the BIS (Baptist Institute of Science) has not developed the technology to expose this.

    On a serious note, I have never felt comfortable watching his messages. Then again, I tend to dismiss electronic pastors who are well known, and may not be giving him a fair assesment. About the only ones I have felt good about were Billy Graham, James Kennedy (Presbyterian), and Charles Stanley. I may have missed some. However, when one gets into the shows like the 700 Club, PTL, Benny Hinn, the preacher who makes everyone laugh, Robert Tilton, etc, etc, etc, I turn the TV off. That is just my opinion. No doubt I make wrong calls, and Mr. Warren could well have multiple more crowns than I could ever dream of. I just do not think ministries or spreading the Gospel of as a circus act to make the message more palitable to the public. It is kind of like sugar coated dog do-do.
     
  4. SolaSaint

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    Thanks for the replies and I agree. What scares me about Warren so much is the huge amount of churches he has influenced. There are literally thousands of little Saddlebacks in America promoting this watered down gospel. His eccuminism as of late is also a reason to look closer at his motives.

    I'm sure Rick has good motives, but I feel he has been deceived in his past by all the people he touts as his mentors, like Peter Drucker and Schuller. I feel the devil is in the details but Warren is oblivious to it. His success has blinded him IMO.
     
  5. webdog

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    Here we ago again :rolleyes:
     
  6. preachinjesus

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    I like Pastor Warren, I have grown personally and pastorally through my interactions with him and his texts, our church has utilized some of the methodology he encourages, I know of many churches who are better off because of him and his ministry, and I believe he is a good minister and leader.
     
  7. timf

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    God can use anyone. Joseph told his brothers, "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good".

    Rick's problem is the same as a lot of pastors. He attempts to reconcile the world with the Bible. When he does, the Bible always looses. This is a path of appeasement and is of the flesh. When we walk in the flesh, we become less directed by the Holy Spirit. This is what was happening in Galatia.

    In the movie Ghostbusters the character played by Bill Murry (a doctor of paranormal science) is told by the Dean of the university that they are being thrown off campus because his science was poor, methods were shoddy, and his research was like some scam. His rely was, "Yeah, but the kids love us."

    Some may be so far from God that Rick can seem a step closer. The measure of a church leader can be seen in Ephesians chapter four, that the members of the church grow into the full image of Christ.

    By this standard Rick is a failure as are most pastors and teachers. We should be cautious that we do not take satisfaction in our estimate that another Christian is wrong and we are right when we have all failed.
     
  8. Van

    Van
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    "Watered down" is an interesting term. If something is not as arcane as my way, then is it watered down. If my bible is not the KJV, is it watered down. If my music stirs the audience of today, is it watered down?

    Is the Saddleback statement of faith, the gospel they preach, watered down? Note the lack of archaic words. :)

    About God

    God is the creator and ruler of the universe. He has eternally existed in three persons – the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three are co-equal and are one God.

    Genesis 1:1, 26, 27; 3:22; Psalm 90:2; Matthew 28:19; 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Corinthians 13:14

    About Man

    Man is made in the spiritual image of God, to be like him in character. He is the supreme object of God’s creation. Although man has tremendous potential for good, he is marred by an attitude of disobedience toward God called "sin." This attitude separates man from God.

    Genesis 1:27; Psalm 8:3-6; Isaiah 53:6a; Romans 3:23; Isaiah 59:1, 2

    About Eternity

    Man was created to exist forever. He will either exist eternally separated from God by sin or in union with God through forgiveness and salvation. To be eternally separated from God is hell. To be eternally in union with him is eternal life. Heaven and hell are places of eternal existence.

    John 3:16; John 2:25; John 5:11-13; Romans 6:23; Revelation 20:15; 1 John 5:11-12; Matthew 25:31-46

    About Jesus Christ

    Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is co-equal with the Father. Jesus lived a sinless human life and offered himself as the perfect sacrifice for the sins of all men by dying on a cross. He arose from the dead after three days to demonstrate His power over sin and death. He ascended to heaven’s glory and will return again to earth to reign as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

    Matthew 1:22, 23; Isaiah 9:6; John 1:1-5, 14:10-30; Hebrews 4:14, 15; 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4; Romans 1:3, 4; Acts 1:9-11; 1 Timothy 6:14, 15; Titus 2:13

    About Salvation

    Salvation is a gift from God to man. Man can never make up for his sin by self-improvement or good works – only by trusting in Jesus Christ as God’s offer of forgiveness can man be saved from sin’s penalty. Eternal life begins the moment one receives Jesus Christ into his life by faith.

    Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8, 9; John 14:6, 1:12; Titus 3:5; Galatians 3:26; Romans 5:1

    About Eternal Security

    Because God gives man eternal life through Jesus Christ, the believer is secure in salvation for eternity. Salvation is maintained by the grace and power of God, not by the self-effort of the Christian.

    John 10:29; 2 Timothy 1:12; Hebrews 7:25; 10:10, 14; 1 Peter 1:3-5

    About The Holy Spirit

    The Holy Spirit is equal with the Father and the Son as God. He is present in the world to make men aware of their need for Jesus Christ. He also lives in every Christian from the moment of salvation. He provides the Christian with power for living, understanding of spiritual truth, and guidance in doing what is right. The Christian seeks to live under his control daily.

    2 Corinthians 3:17; John 16:7-13, 14:16, 17; Acts 1:8; 1 Corinthians 2:12, 3:16; Ephesians 1:13; Galatians 5:25; Ephesians 5:1

    About The Bible

    The Bible is God’s word to all men. It was written by human authors, under the supernatural guidance of the Holy Spirit. It is the supreme source of truth for Christian beliefs and living. Because it is inspired by God, it is truth without any mixture of error.

    2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:20, 21; 2 Timothy 1:13; Psalm 119:105,160, 12:6; Proverbs 30:5

    About Baptism

    Baptism by immersion symbolizes the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus and is your public declaration that you have accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Savior. Baptism does not save you, but shows the world that you have already been saved. And while baptism is not required for salvation, it is a biblical command and demonstrates your love and obedience to Christ.

    Colossians 2:12; Acts 2:41; Ephesians 2: 8-9; Matthew 28:19-20

    About Communion

    Communion, or the Lord’s Supper, is an ordinance given to all believers by Jesus Christ to remember his sacrifice for us and to symbolize the new covenant. The elements of bread and wine or juice are symbols of Christ’s broken body and shed blood. Communion is not a means of salvation. Rather, it is a testament of a believer’s faith in the atoning work of the cross.

    Matthew 26:26-30; Mark 14:22-26; Luke 22:19,20; 1 Corinthians 11:23-29
     
    #8 Van, Dec 3, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 3, 2012
  9. Van

    Van
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    A little story about Saddleback. A church, Reformed!!!, located in near Compton California, came to a vision to reclaim Compton for God. This city, if you are unfamiliar, is crime ridden, run down, and far from God.
    So this Reformed Church, developed a 20 year plan, that is right - a twenty year plan - to reclaim Compton. They sought and obtained approval from the city Fathers, and began with a work day where they tried to repaint and repair some old houses belonging to elderly people. It is quite amazing what a few dozen volunteers can do, and over a few weekends they actually fixed up a small area. But the job seemed too large and they were afraid they might burn out the volunteers. They communicated with some of the other churches, asking for help. The next weekend, at the place where the volunteers were to gather, early in the morning, a bus arrived from Saddleback. Then another, then another, then another. Over 300 volunteers from one church. Just saying....
     
  10. Jack Matthews

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    I'm not a big fan of mega churches in general, particularly those that are built around the pastor's personality and speaking ability. There's a dynamic in the church described in the New Testament that met in a house, and when it got too big for the house, started another group in another house that gets lost in a large group. Research shows that, while Christians are gathering into churches that get larger and larger, the total number of Christians is getting smaller and smaller. The reason for this is that the smaller churches which were doing one on one evangelism, are slowly being suffocated and snuffed out of existence. Mega churches grow by inward ministry that attracts believers from other churches, not through the baptistry.

    There are some things about Rick Warren and Saddleback Church that I personally don't like, and with which I would disagree. On the other hand, much of what is contained in that video is a distortion, is taken out of context, and conclusions that are drawn are what my Dad would call "a fur piece" from even the facts presented in the video. In short, it is a hack job, and it is not a reliable source.

    The whole "seeker sensitive", media driven atmosphere of the mega church movement is counter to the purpose of a worship service and to evangelistic outreach. In the New Testament, worship was a time for believers to encounter God, not a place for the lost to hear an evangelistic message. Evangelism takes place in the community where believers live. There's a reason that only 1% of Christians come to Christ through an evangelistic service, but more than 90% do so through a relationship they have with a Christian family member or friend.

    In contrast to most megas, Saddleback does see a higher percentage of people come to Christ. They do go after lost people, attempt to avoid encouraging people to church hop, and they do make a real effort at discipleship through small groups. Warren's messages and writing is simple, not watered down, Biblical, reflecting a belief in the inerrancy and infallibility of the scripture, and not overly "seeker oriented." His church seems connected to the SBC like most of its megachurches, for the value of the public relations benefit to themselves, but not particularly generous when it comes to what they are willing to provide in terms of "cooperative ministry."

    While he's certainly not perfect, criticism needs to be kept factual. What often happens here is that the critics begin to sound like the disciples, when they told Jesus, "We saw someone casting out demons in your name and we told him to stop because he wasn't one of us."
     
  11. Van

    Van
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    In order to find someone guilty of watering down the gospel, what the gospel actually is must be agreed upon. Does looking for God's purpose for our lives involve repentance from sin? When we repent and commit to strive to follow Christ, do we know where the path of righteousness will lead, do we start as mature Christians fully convicted of all our sins?

    Billy Graham finishes his services with an invitation and a song, Just as I am. Does the non-watered down Gospel, say you must be discipled and learn, before you can believe in Christ? Or is an ignorant child's complete faith in Christ as their Lord and Savior enough? What say the scriptures?
     
  12. webdog

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    The main problem I see with the op is marketing = worldly. Marketing is marketing, period. It is grabbing people's attention to a product or service. Handing out tracts is marketing. Open air preaching is marketing. If using media is "worldly" (I.e. sinful) everyone is guilty, not just RW.
     
  13. Van

    Van
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    Does scripture tell us to market the gospel, i.e. to become all things so that we may win some. Are we to adorn the gospel?

    How do we really understand 1 Corinthians 9:22, or Romans 11:14, or Titus 2:10?

    What are the five purposes of God for our lives?
    1) Love the triune God with all our heart
    2) Trust Christ and serve Him
    3) Be ambassadors of Christ, begging other to be reconciled to God.
    4) Making Disciples, teaching them to obey all the commands of Christ
    5) Training others to serve Christ and fulfill God's purpose.

    Is this not the same old gospel, dressed up for today's culture?
     
    #13 Van, Dec 3, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 3, 2012
  14. SolaSaint

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    I will pray that you will be more discerning brother.
     
  15. SolaSaint

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    dog,


    You know I can't let RW go for 6 months without exposing his threat to the church.
     
  16. SolaSaint

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    Jack,

    Just curious, how do you know the video is a "hack job"? I trust a couple of the speakers on the video, especially Phil Johnson. If there is specific trouble in the video please let us all know what it is. Thanks.
     
    #16 SolaSaint, Dec 3, 2012
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  17. webdog

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    Question begging. A fallacy.
     
  18. SolaSaint

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    Yes, I agree dog, the Purpose Driven method is a fallacy and it's so sad millions follow it. But scripture warns us of this doen't it.
     
  19. webdog

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    No, your claim he is a "threat" is begging the question, a fallacy. Scripture also warns us against slander.
     
  20. SolaSaint

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    Dog,

    My reply was to be considered sarcasm. You need to losen up on Mr. Warren, unless he is you uncle or something. Is the Purpose Driven Life on your shelf?
     
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