Who is Satan in this passage?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Jarthur001, Dec 8, 2006.

  1. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
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    The text Job 1:6

    Who is Satan/the Adversary/accuser in this text? Most have called this the devil, but is it? The Devil who is evil, can come in front of a Holy God?

    I would like to take a new look at this passage. If its the Devil, so be it. But show me support for this view. The NIV calls the "sons of God" angels. If this is true, does this also mean that being that the adversary was with them, that the adversary is also a angel? Or could the adversary be something else?

    Where is this meeting? If it is in Heaven, can evil be in heaven? Is the meeting in Heaven? If so, where is the proof? Is it because the adversary left from Jehovah? Cain left from Jehovah, and he was not in Heaven. If not in Heaven where?

    1) Who is Satan in this passage?
    2) Where did the meeting take place?


    Thanks for you input.



    In Christ...James
     
  2. mountainrun

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    I think Job believed God was in Heaven according to..;

    Job 16:19
    Even now, God in heaven is both my witness and my protector.

    They are definitely not on the earth as Satan said he had just come from there.

    I also see that Moses was in the Lord's presence several times so I don't know that God cannot be in the presence of sinful men, or angels.
    I have heard this many times but I don't know of any scriptural support for it.
    I haven't really looked though.
    It may be one of those beliefs that really isn't in the Bible that I started a thread on.
    Maybe we just have to remove our shoes as Moses did?
    I hope I was a little helpful anyway.

    Halftime is over but I might check this out some more.
    It's an interesting question. Thank you.

    MR
     
  3. Marcia

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    The adversary is Satan. Satan is an angel.

    1) Satan is the adversary. The word "Satan" means "adversary."

    2) In the presence of God.

     
  4. IveyLeaguer

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    A very good question, James, and a fascinating subject.

    As Marcia said, the adversary is Satan, or Lucifer. The "sons of God" are angels in the broad sense, but perhaps better described as 'divine beings' - created beings, i.e., "sons" of God, beings of high rank and essence, somewhat distinguished from angels in the sense that angels are messengers, etc., and these beings 'counsel' with the sovereign Yahweh Himself. It is believed by many that they are the "gods" in such scriptures as Exodus 15:11 and Psalm 95:3, and there is ample compelling evidence that the ancient Hebrews understood exactly what these beings were.

    The meeting place is somewhere in the heavens and modern scholarship refers to the participants as the 'divine council', or 'heavenly council'. This council is also seen in Psalm 89, Psalm 82, Job 38:7, and 1st Kings 22:19-23, and referred to in many other places such as Deuteronomy 32:8 (the ESV correctly translates it 'sons of God', instead of sons of Israel, and the NET Bible translates it "heavenly assembly", correctly asserting that, subsequent to the Tower of Babel, God divided and delegated jurisdiction over the nations to these divine beings and kept Israel for Himself, as He wanted to rule over it directly).

    In Job 1 & 2 the picture is the divine council meeting for business. Satan, as the adversary, has a role in the meeting and is present as a participant . If I recall, most Hebrew scholars say the Hebrew text is ambiguous as to whether Satan is a member of the council or one of the sons of God.

    I stumbled on all this in my personal Bible study, and spent many weeks searching for the truth about it. That initial investigation remains incomplete, but I look forward to picking it up again when there is time. It has already increased and opened up my understanding of the Old Testament and pioneer scholars claim even greater understanding of both Old and New Testaments, saying you'll "never look at your Bible the same way again once you meet God’s original heavenly family—the sons of God," and without this understanding you "can’t comprehend (the Bible) precisely or fully, or even well. You will inevitably miss out on the context for much of what goes on in the New Testament, a context understood and utilized by the apostles at every turn." Strong words, but so far I have not been able to rule them out.

    Nevertheless, I would caution anyone who desires to look into this to do so prayerfully, exercising great discernment and, as always, enlisting and depending on the help of God the Holy Spirit. Much of the difficulty lies in ancient texts, etc., and it is critical to keep in mind what is Scripture and what is supporting text. But there is no need to worry about "sons of God" leading into polytheism or any such thing, as one scholar I know of has said: the "sons of God" are of another "species" and thus "by definition beneath the Father and Son. They serve Yahweh and his Co-Sovereign in the divine council ... the essence and status of the Father and Son will never and can never change ... because they are unmatched and unmatchable in essence and power.

    "There is only one Yahweh, and His co-regent, the Son, is Him."

    :jesus:
     
  5. LeBuick

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    It clearly says and Satan who is the tempter. Remember, all he does is tempt Job.

    I don't believe the sons of God are angels. If they are then this verse says they procreate;

    Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

    Now look at how Paul defines this term;

    Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

    He sais they are men lead by the Spirit.
     
  6. Jarthur001

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    Thanks for your replies. I cannot tell you how many times I have read this passage. Many times to put it easy. But last week I read it and things popped out at me. I guess we have 3 things we are addressing here.

    1 Satan
    2 Sons of God
    3 Meeting place.

    The meeting it is clear is before God. I have always just thought ok..God is in Heaven, so this is where the meeting took place. Now I guess I should say this...Before when I read this passage, Gods holiness kept troubling me. How can Satan be in Heaven? My understanding of Gods holiness and my understanding of sin just did not jive with this passage, as I have always read the passage.

    God is Holy..
    God Hates Sin…
    As I said the meeting with Satan and the idea of Gods holiness just did not mix in my small mind. Was I missing something? Well, I never understood it, but I knew it was true, for it is in the Bible. I just went with it as others had wrote.

    But, last week I asked…does this meeting have to take place in Heaven? I have always thought it was in Heaven, for it was before God. But could it not have been in Chicago? God can go there right? Or maybe Mars or the moon? I mean we really do not know unless I’m over looking things, where this meeting took place. Now Heaven would not be a problem, if it were not that the Devil is there...if in fact the Devil and Satan are one and the same. So...if we move the meeting to Chicago, have we hurt the text?

    Now Job addresses God later as if God is in Heaven. But this is long after the meeting.

    *********
    Ok now the Sons of God.
    One translation had God with a little g. I guess I can see why they did this, but I think this idea brings more problems then God with a big G. Anyway, It has always been my understanding these are angels. But why not just say it is angels if it were angels? Could it not be something else? I'm just sharing my thoughts here. No need to cast stones YET. :)

    But are we calling them angels, because we do not know what they are, and they have to be something, and we know that there are angels in Heaven, so these must be angels? If so, this is not a good reason to call them angels.

    In Revelation John tells us of things he seen and really has no name for.
    The 4 living creatures for one.
    Also John tells of the seven Spirits of God.
    The seven spirits of God are not specifically identified. It is therefore impossible to be dogmatic. Revelation 1:4 mentions that the seven spirits are before God's throne. Revelation 3:1 indicates that Jesus Christ "holds" the seven spirits of God. Revelation 4:5 links the seven spirits of God with seven burning lamps that are before God's throne. Revelation 5:6 identifies the seven spirits with the "seven eyes" of the Lamb and states that they are "sent out into all the earth."

    So could we say that, because the “sons of God” is not addressed as angels, that it could be something other then angels. Something we do not even have a name for. Or..maybe even something we have never linked with the right meaning. Like, could the 7 spirits of God that stand before the throne of God, be the same as “sons of God”? If this were true, then maybe Satan in this passage is not the same as the Devil. This would give new meaning to the meeting, and also, allow the whole holiness thing to work. If in fact Satan is just one of the "sons of God".

    ********
    Satan.
    The word "Satan" does indeed mean "adversary", but this does not tell me if it means Devil also. The same would is used in Numbers 22

    Num 22:22
    And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants [were] with him.


    Can the adversary in this text be something other then the devil? I’m asking this again with Gods holiness in mind. To play out the idea of 7 spirits of God, could this be one of the spirits of God? We have seen in Numbers where God does send out adversaries to work out His will. Could this be the case of Job?

    Thanks again...no hate mail please. :)



    In Christ...James
     
    #6 Jarthur001, Dec 9, 2006
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  7. Allan

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    Just because God is Holy doesn't mean sin can't be before him. What the scritpures state is that God does not sin, nor desires to sin, as sin is not found in Him. God placed Himself in the presence of sin many times in the OT, from speaking with Cain when he offered an inadiquate offering (he was in a fallen and sinful state) to Noah, Abraham, to Jacob, to Moses, to...
    Think about it for a second, where did the first sin orginate? It was in heaven as Lucifer was known as the Covering Angel of the throne. Sin stains the courts of heaven just as it does Gods creation and (IMO) is the reason God creates a NEW Heaven AND a NEW Earth as He is removing all traces forever from before Him ( all things are before Him)
    Of course God hates sin but does God not work even in the hearts of sinners??
    I personally don't think so, and would have no real problem with it as God can be both on His throne AND somewhere else. However the Devil and Satan ARE one and the same as scripture ascribes that 'name' to him and those humans who it has been infered upon is ascribing those charactoristic of Lucifer in a fallen state to those individuals at that time. (like Peter - Get thee behind me Satan for you are a offence or stumbling block before me, for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.)
    Satan is referenced as that person in the Garden all the way to Revelation as being one and the same.
    Also don't forget that Satan is continuously before God accusing the brethren.
    We also know Lucifer is Satan because:
    Note all the personal pronouns and singlular usage which demonstrates that God believes Satan is an individual at the hightest level of command in his own kingdom and power. I would say scripture is pretty precise on who Satan is and this person in Job is that same person for we find God not speaking with any other angel about man except to one who has the power (albeit with Gods permission) to excersize what ever measures he pleases. Satan throught the scriptures is seen contending with Gods people, whether hindering, persecuting, or killing them it is always Satan that contends to destroy and pull them from God.
    How so?? For if they were 'G'ods rather than 'g'ods they would be considered equals with God and that is much more of a problem than the little 'g's of scripture.
    Yes, but why not just say saved rather than redeemed, blood bought, born again, ect... or the Trinity or... They are the same in respect to the aspect they present but they help give the larger meaning or understanding OF that aspect. For instance:
    We see the phrase 'Sons of God' throughout the OT (with only one instance it does not as it is to them the NT likens us) refering only to angelic hosts but in the NT it refers now only to Believers! What a change!, or is it?
    The 'Sons of God' refers in the OT (generally delinated of Holy or non or even ALL of them) as it speaks that they were of the Lord and being spirit beings much like God they would be considered apart of that family (spirits) aspect but NOT actaully family.
    However the NT gives this aspect more clarity and grander scope with a more spesific meaning than just - like as God (being spirits) and of the Lord; in the very likeness of God through Christ to one day be as He is both in mind and body but NOT God. Also we are actual family and apart of His inheritence because we most literally are of the Lord because we are IN the Lord due to Him making us as such.
    NO we are not calling them angels because we don't know what to Call them, the scriptures tells us who they are. It is clear in scripture unless you want to try to blur those lines. But then it becomes of personal interpretation and not what the bible states it is.
    Nope, not even close. There are differing types of Angels and scripture speaks to them as Spirit of God gave the prophets utterance to describe them. In the NT the Son's of God are never address anymore to the Angelic Host. You are trying to hard James to symbolize and see things that are not there. Satan IS Satan who also just happens to be the Devil. And no it does not give new meaning to the meeting. Actually scripture does not state it IS a meeting but that the 'sons of God' PRESENTD themselves before the Lord and not that they sat around (or stood or floated) discussing current events. And the only dialog we see happen is intiated by God TO Satan and not the other way around. All we know is this brief glimpse into the spirit relm where at some appointed time theses Angels PRESENTED themselves before God.
    Since they 'Presented" themselves before God, it for this reason often times it is assumed that they came before the throne of God much like scripture speaks of judgment or mercy.
    No as the Hebrew construct is not specifying a personal pronoun but is an adjective speaking of what the Angel of the Lord was doing. James you know better than that.
    No it is not one of the seven spirits as the are refering to the Churches and not advasaries or Satan. No this is not the Case in Job as it IS a personal pronoun refering to a person.
    Likening something to something does not constitute it as being the same thing. I showed this when Jesus stated to Peter: Satan get behind me. Does this mean that ALL Apostles should be called Satan? No, of course not! Especially since the scripture states clearly who it is dealing with and that it is a simile with regard to the nature of Satan as Jesus specifically states just after that statment.
     
    #7 Allan, Dec 11, 2006
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  8. Allan

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    But that is My opinion. :wavey:
     
  9. LeBuick

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    I don't know how you say the OT reference to sons of God is always speaking of Angels?

    Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
    5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

    This verse says the sons of God bore Children. I didn't know Agels could procreate.

    Also, verse 5 says the wickedness of Man was great. I find it odd it does not say the wickedness of man and the sons of God but it only says the wickedness of Man.

    If these are Angels, these would have to be the 1/3 fallen angels because their acts are not Godly. Would you agree? This would mean the flood served no purpose since the 1/3 fallen angels were not destroyed by the flood. This would mean they still have the ability to procreate and create more of these wicked Giants.
     
  10. Allan

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    I stated there was one exception and this reference is much the same as that which speaks of believers in the NT. Obviously the FULLNESS of the NT is not attributed to them but much the same as the Angels and why it is again given to Man as the bears of that name to the fulness it implies.

    When it is referencing Man it is of ALL man both the 'sons' and non-sons because BOTH were now intimately (as groups) involved in wickedness. There was no seperation any longer between the world and Gods. Sound familar??
     
    #10 Allan, Dec 11, 2006
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  11. saturneptune

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    James,
    It is good to see you. This is a very thought provoking subject, and probably way above my head. One thing I did want to get your opinion on is Satan and the Devil are different, what is the difference, and what roll do they play today?
     
  12. LeBuick

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    I know I'm not James but I believe they are one in the same;

    Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
    Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
     
  13. Jarthur001

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    Hello Allan,

    Lets look at what you posted and see what we can do with it. :)


    Lets see...Cain murdered and then what did God do, and what did Cain say?

    From the face of God. hummm Maybe God does not like sin around Him.


    Not sure what Heaven it was 1st 2nd, or 3rd but it was high...For then they were cast DOWN. Maybe God does not like sin around Him.

    "How art thou fallen from heaven
    O day-star, son of the morning! (Helel ben Shahar)
    How art thou cast down to the ground,

    That didst cast lots over the nations!
    And thou saidst in thy heart:
    'I will ascend into heaven,
    Above the stars of God (El)
    Will I exalt my throne;
    And I will sit upon the mount of meeting,
    In the uttermost parts of the north;
    I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
    I will be like the Most High (Elyon).'
    Yet thou shalt be brought dow to the nether-world,
    To the uttermost parts of the pit."
    - Isaiah 14:12-15

    And just what happen to the fallen angels? King of Tyrus..most say is the devil
    Well...sent Christ to pay for the sins, so that they are no more.

    I agree that there is only one "evil one". The Bible does not seem to support 2 devils. What I asked was in Job 1-3 was this the Devil? If so show support.

    Are you saying Satan must go to heaven to be before God?


    I know Satan is a person. I fail to see what this has to do with the OP. In Job 1-3 is what is called Satan in the KJV the same as the devil?

    For one thing, heaven is more then you let it out to be. The 3rd heaven that is. To here you talk anyone can come and go to heaven as they please. Satan, and His devils, Angels, Son of God and the son of gods. It seems like that was a law..Have no other gods before you...But God lets other gods in heaven? Just how does this work?


    This text calles then sons of Gods, not angels.

    The rest I will not address for most was talking about other passages.



    In Christ...James
     
  14. Jarthur001

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    Hey Saturn,

    Not sure if they are different. I think the Bible really only supports one Satan/Devil. But the Hebrew word used for Satan is used in other ways. In Job if we were to use it in its pure form, we would have a new way of looking at the passage in Job. Does God use Angels to carry out His will? I think all will agree He does. Do angels have different roles? Again I think we all can agree. Now who are the Sons of God? And could God have a angel to work out his will in a negative way as an adversary??

    Like in Num....

    Now it is clear that it happened one time. Could this be that case in Job also? Who tested Job? Job said God did.

    Job 16...

     
  15. Allan

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    So you contend that Cain was sinless up to this point and that the sin nature in which we all share is was not attributed to Cain??
    A lie in the eyes of God is no different than murder because to God sin is sin. So even if Cain did not kill his brother he stood in the eyes of God a sinner, and unholy.
    Sin is all around God in the sense that God is everywhere and all things are before His eyes. God has never liked sin but God uses it for His glory (as you state quite frequently). So if God hates it so much why use it and not cast it out??
    All things are before God, and that which God allows before him whether fallen or not is by His permission and lest we forget God decreed that sin will be and thereby He knew where it would come from and go to.
    I believe I can establish it was the 3rd Heaven (Gods abode) and that Satan known then as Lucifer was one of the the Covering Cherubs which is equated with Gods throne.
    This statement (stones of fire) I believe is a refernce to the coals upon the alter. In what manner Lucifer was there, whether tending them or some other purpose it was part of his duties. Scriptures never descibe this alter that except in Isaiah where a Seraphim took a coal from the altar and brought it to Isaiah to purge his sin. This altar was before the the throne of God which is on the Holy Mount of God.
    We can also can see this in the fact of where he minstered (sanctuaries)
    However, I find NO scripture that states demons nor Satan that Devil of old is allowed to come to or before the presense of God. But I did take note of something I personally never saw before in the verses I just quoted.
    We know these verses refer to Satan final defeat as he is laid before the kings of the earth like a defeated foe BUT, Note what God says about casting him down...
    Note all that God 'will' (future tense) do to Satan in his final judment, including casting him from the mount of God, and laying him before the kings.
    Now look and see that all the sin Satan did was in the past tense, (italics) so though he had sinned and was IN his sin yet God says he is not yet cast down completely from the mount of God nor is he yet set before the kings as a vanquished foe. Yes Satan was cast from heaven but not from be allowed back and forth as God permits - such as the time when the sons of God presented themselves before the Lord. He can not come and go before God at will but according to Gods own words Satan is not yet cast from the mount of God completely. Jesus watched Lucifer fall from heaven but this does not mean Satan can not come before God as God permits.
    He was not the Devil but was being used by him and the attributes of Satan correlated and were personified in the King (Prince) of Tyrus. So God in speaking to the King equates the same aspects of Satan and his sin to show this same picture of the King and his own pride. And just as Satan will be judged on day future so this King will to.
    And what of those who are not believers. What of the elect yet saved as they to are sinners before God. Does God not have to touch them in some way to bring them unto Himself. What of those before Christ and even after as God will use sin to His glory and has even spoken to sinful man as well as been in their presence. Hey this is from your arguments of God using both sinner and saint alike and that God even takes control (at times) of the sinner to do His will just as you contend God does with the Saints. (From the OP - Robots in Heaven)

    It is, and I did. If there is not two Devils or Satans then the one in Job MUST by definition of there being only be THAT one.
    Not specifically but there is no scripture that states they can not or are not permitted to come before God if He commands or permits them to. Specifically if He designates a time they MUST present themselves before Him.
    I have already established both in the previous posting IT IS and in this one. You fail to see what it has to do with the OP?? You asked is it the same, and I answer Yes. How is it not having anything to with the OP?? This entity is a Person and is designated by personal pronouns regarding an individual. If there is only one Devil and Satan by your own words, then who else is it refering?
    Please show some support that you have establishing it being someone 'other than' Satan himself.
    I never stated they could come and go as they please nor is it even infrenced in what I wrote. They can come and go as God permits, and IF God permits. Since God can be anywhere at anytime in all places at all times, I don't see it particulary NEEDFUL for them to HAVE to present themselves to God in Heaven before His throne.
    It 'SEEMS' it was a law?? Where is this stated or insinuated in scripture.
    If you are trying to contend the Mosaic Law is what kept them out, you are reaching much further than your arms are able. The 'have no other gods before me...' is not a reference to people bringing their gods before God to present them. But that they are not hold anything high than Himself. And they were around LONG before Moses brought forth the 'Law'.
    How does this work?? James, I thought you believed in Gods soveriegnty and nothing works without Gods express permission.

    Besides I have not stated they MUST be in heaven but that there is not scripture stating they can't be there at Gods command or permission. The only one I contend is allowed in a limited sense is Satan himself as I showed in the above and as I consistantly contend it would be by God permitting him and not on Satans whim.
    Ok then, prove they are not angels.
    Show some supporting evidence and not conjecture or hypothosis that they are not Angelic beings spoken of in general.




    In Christ...James[/QUOTE]
     
  16. Allan

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    And Job was wrong. He was so wrong in fact that God rebuked him for ASSUMING God did it. The whole reason Job was angry with God was he ASSUMED God unrighteously judged him as he had done nothing wrong. That is the context of what Job complaimed about.

    It was this 'assumption' that God rebuked and is the very reason Job would say anything before God when Job realized he didn't have all the facts. That this was not God judging him for sin as he erroneously thought.

    Do you think that whole Satan before God is a story made up to help the plot line??
     
  17. Allan

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    Last thing:

    Angels and the Son's of God in the OT are the same, why?
    Angels are frequently illistrated in the texts as stars:
    Now most everyone knows this and already agrees with this. But let us look at something else pertaining to these stars:
    We know there are distinctions of Angels: Cherubs, (as Satan was one of the Covering Cherubs) Cherubims, Seriphims, and...morning stars??
    We see that certain angels sang and then scriptures states ALL of the sons of God shouted for joy. Here we see scripture bringing the two together.

    I personally wonder if the Morning stars are associated or specific ministering angels to Christ Jesus who is known as The Morning Star.
    ***shrug***
    Who knows but I am substantiating that the those Sons of God and then a specific reference to a particular angel Satan is in direct connection with the other passage in Job 38:7 which speaks of the Morning Stars singing (angels) AND (in addition them) ALL the Sons of God shouted for Joy!!
     
    #17 Allan, Dec 12, 2006
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  18. John I Morris

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    satan was one of God's angel's, now he may still be an angel, but an evil one at best. I believe that he is a demon, because the Bible calls him a demon. He is the prince and power of darkness, and yes, he could come before God in heaven at one time to accuse the brethern. He can no longer do that, since he got the boot in Isaiah 14. I am sure that you are aware that Job is the oldest book of the Bible, thus the rendering of him coming before God in heaven. Very good question it sure has me thinking! Thank you!
     
  19. Allan

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    So Satan was kicked out sometime during the time of Isaiah??

    Who were the brethren he came before God to accuse?? That is not a term used that I know of concerning those believers before or during Mosaic Law but only of NT believers.


    Just curious.
     
    #19 Allan, Dec 12, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 12, 2006
  20. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob
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    Everyone who comes before God and gives his life to him, satan is always there, and telling that person he is mistaken in himself and God. Not only then, but after being saved, satan is still there as a thorn in the flesh. It is not in Heaven either, it is here on earth. We can come before God here. Our lives are an open book before God, as we live in this life and satan (the devil), is always present and will be, as long as we have a body of corruption. When it comes to Salvation or being saved, Heaven and earth come together to perform this action.
     
    #20 Brother Bob, Dec 12, 2006
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