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WHO IS THE ANTICHRIST and what is the Mark of the Beast?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Claudia, Feb 19, 2003.

  1. dumbox1

    dumbox1 Guest

    The JW's? Or were you thinking of somewhere more ominous?

    Mark
     
  2. Chrissy

    Chrissy <img src=/claudia2.gif>

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    MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL ..... JESUS?
    by Michael Scheifler
    http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/
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    To begin, let's look at the phrase *angel of the LORD* in the story of Moses and the burning bush-

    Exo 3:2 And the *angel of the LORD* appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

    Now in verses four and six, who is identified as being in the bush?-
    Exo 3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

    Exo 3:6 Moreover he said, *I am* the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

    Notice that the angel (messenger) of verse 2 is really none other than God Himself. This is confirmed in the New Testament-

    Acts 7:30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an *angel of the Lord* in a flame of fire in a bush.
    Acts 7:31 When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him,

    Now note the following-

    Exo 3:13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
    Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, *I AM* THAT *I AM*: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, *I AM* hath sent me unto you.

    When asked what His name is, the God of the patriarchs of the Old Testament replies *I AM*. Now look again in the New Testament-

    Acts 7:32 Saying, *I am* the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold.

    John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
    John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, *I am*.

    Jesus Christ had just identified Himself as the One who is the God of the Old Testament patriarchs, who was present in the burning bush speaking to Moses. Just for extra measure-

    John 18:4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?
    John 18:5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, *I am* he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
    John 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, *I am* he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

    Jesus Christ again makes it clear He is the *I am*. Merely speaking the words made those present fall over. So the *angel of the Lord* and Jesus are identical to, and synonymous with, the *I am* that met Moses at the burning bush.


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    Now look at the story of Hagar in Genesis-

    Gen 16:7 And the *angel of the LORD* found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur.

    Gen 16:9 And the *angel of the LORD* said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.
    Gen 16:10 And the *angel of the LORD* said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
    Gen 16:11 And the *angel of the LORD* said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
    Gen 16:12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

    Hagar has been visited and spoken to by the *angel of the Lord*, but look who she says it was-

    Gen 16:13 And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?

    Again the *angel of the Lord* is actually none other than the LORD Jesus Christ Himself. Now a little later in Genesis-

    Gen 21:17 And God heard the voice of the lad; and the *angel of God* called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.
    Gen 21:18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.

    Who would make a great nation of the lad? Surely not a mere angel, but actually Jesus Christ Himself.


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    Now let's look at the story of Abraham and Isaac-

    Gen 22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
    Gen 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

    God speaks to Abraham, giving him instructions to follow. Look who speaks to Abraham next-

    Gen 22:11 And the *angel of the LORD* called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.

    Gen 22:15 And the *angel of the LORD* called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
    Gen 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
    Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
    Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

    Who will bless Abraham and multiply his seed? Notice the transition from *angel of the LORD* in verse 15 to the LORD (Jesus Christ) in verse 16?


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    Now on to Jacob-

    Gen 31:11 And the *angel of God* spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I.

    Who does this messenger identify Himself as?-

    Gen 31:13 I am the God of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred.

    This vow of Jacob's is found in Gen 28-

    Gen 28:20 And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on,
    Gen 28:21 So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God:
    Gen 28:22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

    So the *angel of God* of Gen 31:11 is again none other than the LORD God (Jesus Christ).


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    Now to the Israelites in the wilderness-

    Exo 14:19 And *the angel of God*, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:

    Who went before them?-

    Exo 13:21 And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:

    Again, the messenger or *angel of God* is the same as the LORD.


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    Now in the story of Balaam, we begin with God speaking directly to Balaam-

    Num 22:20 And God came unto Balaam at night, and said unto him, If the men come to call thee, rise up, and go with them; but yet the word which I shall say unto thee, that shalt thou do.

    Then a transition from God to *angel of the LORD*-

    Num 22:22 And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the *angel of the LORD* stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him.

    So guess who was standing before Balaam? None other than Jesus Christ. The *angel of the LORD* is used many times in verses 23,24,25,26,31,32,34,35 and the LORD in verses 28,31. Then continuing in Chapter 23 God meets Balaam in verse 4 and the LORD is mentioned in verses 5 and 16. These titles are being used interchangeably. In each case it is again referring to the LORD Jesus Christ.


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    Now in the book of Judges-

    Judg 2:1 And an *angel of the LORD* came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.

    By now this should be easy. Just who brought the Israelites out of Egypt and made the covenant with Israel that He would never break - *an angel of the LORD* or Jesus Christ, GOD Himself? Yes, the answer is both, one and the same.

    Now look who visits Gideon later in Judges-

    Judg 6:11 And there came an *angel of the LORD*, and sat under an oak which was in Ophrah, that pertained unto Joash the Abiezrite: and his son Gideon threshed wheat by the winepress, to hide it from the Midianites.

    Note what this messenger (angel) says-

    Judg 6:12 And the *angel of the LORD* appeared unto him, and said unto him, The LORD is with thee, thou mighty man of valour.

    THE LORD IS WITH THEE ... it was indeed Jesus with Gideon, note-

    Judg 6:20 And the *angel of God* said unto him, Take the flesh and the unleavened cakes, and lay them upon this rock, and pour out the broth. And he did so.
    Judg 6:21 Then the *angel of the LORD* put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes. Then the *angel of the LORD* departed out of his sight.
    Judg 6:22 And when Gideon perceived that he was an *angel of the LORD*, Gideon said, Alas, O Lord GOD! for because I have seen an *angel of the LORD* face to face.

    Now look who (again) speaks-

    Judg 6:23 And the LORD said unto him, Peace be unto thee; fear not: thou shalt not die.

    Gideon had been speaking with the LORD Jesus Christ all along.


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    On to Judges 13-

    Judg 13:3 And the *angel of the LORD* appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son.

    *Angel of God/the Lord* appears in verses 9,13, and 15-18.
    Note what Manoah asks in verse 17 and the answer in verse 18:

    Judg 13:17 And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour?
    Judg 13:18 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?

    The Hebrew word translated "secret" in the King James (H6383) also can mean "wonderful". Note that this is a title for Jesus:

    Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    So who had Manoah and his wife been speaking with?

    Judg 13:21 But the *angel of the LORD* did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an *angel of the LORD*.
    Judg 13:22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

    They knew, it was God. But why not God the Father, you might ask?-

    John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

    So none of these events I cite could be God the Father, He has never been seen by man or spoken to man. Clearly then, in the instances I cite, the phrase *angel of the LORD* or *angel of God* actually meant Jesus Christ, who is the *chief messenger (angel) of the LORD (God the Father)*, who has declared the Father to mankind.


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    Here is a further text to consider-

    Gen 48:14 And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim's head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh's head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the firstborn.
    Gen 48:15 And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,
    Gen 48:16 The *Angel which redeemed me* from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

    Notice that Israel was talking about God and then transitioned to an angel-

    God, --- before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk
    God --- which fed me all my life long unto this day
    The *Angel --- which redeemed me* from all evil
    (*the Angel* that) --- bless the lads; and let my name be named on them
    (*the Angel* that) --- let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth

    This is referring back to Gen 28:13-15 and the Lord's promise to Jacob (Israel)-

    Gen 28:13 And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;
    Gen 28:14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
    Gen 28:15 And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.
    Gen 28:16 And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the LORD is in this place; and I knew it not.

    So in Gen 48:16 Israel is speaking of God as a redeeming angel. Again, not angel the sense of a created being, but rather in the generic sense of the word, meaning messenger. What created angel could redeem anyone? None. Redemption is found only in Jesus Christ, the very Son of God, and that is exactly who Jacob (Israel) had been speaking with and about. Jesus was, and is, that redeeming angel (messenger) sent from God the Father.


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    The Angel of the Covenant

    Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
    Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
    Mal 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

    The messenger of the covenant spoken of here in Malachi is clearly a reference to Jesus Christ, and His first and second coming. The word translated as messenger in Mal 3:1 is the same word [H4397, mal'ak] used in the previous passages of the old testament where we saw the phrase angel of the Lord. So this would also be a proper translation:

    Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my angel, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the angel of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

    In fact, this is how the Catholic Douay Rheims Bible translates this verse:

    CHAPTER 3.

    Christ shall come to his temple, and purify the priesthood. They that continue in their evil ways shall be punished: but true penitents shall receive a blessing.

    Mal 3:1 Behold* I send my angel, and he shall prepare the way before my face. And presently the Lord, whom you seek, and the angel of the testament, whom you desire, shall come to his temple. Behold he cometh, saith the Lord of hosts.

    * Matt. 11:10; Mark 1:2; Luke 1:17; and 7:27.

    The first angel or messenger mentioned in the verse alludes to John the Baptist, who preceded Jesus Christ and prepared the way for Him, but the angel of the testament / covenant who comes to His temple is clearly Jesus Christ. So Jesus is described in scripture as the *angel or messenger of the covenant*. That covenant likely being the one made to Adam and Eve in Genesis 3:15, that a redeemer would come to rescue a fallen humanity, or in addition, as we have previously noted, it was Jesus who appeared to Moses on Mount Sinai in the burning bush, and He also gave the Ten Commandments to Moses on tables of stone, which were placed in the container known as the ark of the covenant.

    Therefore, in Malachi both John the Baptist and Jesus Christ are referred to as angels, or messengers, in the broadest sense of the meaning of the word. An angel in scripture can simply be a messenger, without meaning the created heavenly winged-being that most associate with the term. This is the key point to be made, Jesus can be referred to as an angel (messenger) without detracting from His deity in any way at all.

    So now, what of Michael the archangel? Is it so difficult to believe that he may actually be Jesus Christ? Let's look at each instance he is mentioned in the Bible and see-

    ARCHANGEL / MICHAEL TEXT #1

    1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the *archangel*, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    Who raises the dead with His voice? Not a created angel, indeed not even a created archangel. The shout is given with the voice of the *archangel*, the LORD Jesus Christ Himself:

    John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
    John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
    John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    It is the voice of Jesus Christ (the Son of man) that raises the dead. Just as 1 Th 4:16 says, the Lord Jesus shall descend from heaven and shout with the voice of the Archangel, because He is the Archangel. With that shout, the righteous dead will be raised from their graves!

    ARCHANGEL / MICHAEL TEXT #2

    Jude 1:9 Yet *Michael the archangel*, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

    This verse is a virtual duplicate of another Old Testament event-

    Zec 3:1 And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the *angel of the LORD*, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
    Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

    In both Jude 9 and Zech 3:1-2 it is Jesus, the *angel of the LORD* who is also *Michael the archangel*, contending with Satan for both Moses and Joshua.

    ARCHANGEL / MICHAEL TEXT #3

    Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, *Michael*, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia

    The prince of the kingdom of Persia is a reference to Satan, and Michael refers again to Jesus. It is the created angel Gabriel that is speaking with Daniel (See Dan 8:16, 9:21). The reference to Michael as one of the chief princes probably alludes to the Trinity, with Jesus being one part of the triune Godhead.

    ARCHANGEL / MICHAEL TEXT #4

    Dan 10:21 But I will show thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

    So is Gabriel saying that only a created being knows the truth of scripture? No, clearly not. Michael the archangel is Jesus, God, who knows all the truth of scripture.

    ARCHANGEL / MICHAEL TEXT #5

    Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:

    Michael standing up is a reference to the second coming of Jesus at the end of time.

    Some might propose that, in these three preceding texts from Daniel, the description of Michael as a mere prince is inappropriate for Jesus, so it must be speaking of a created angel. Note the following verses:

    Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    Acts 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
    Acts 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

    Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
    Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

    Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

    ARCHANGEL / MICHAEL TEXT #6
    Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, ...

    Who leads the angelic host of heaven, who is their captain?

    Josh 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?

    Josh 5:14 And he said, Nay; but as *captain of the host* of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
    Josh 5:15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

    Notice that Joshua worshipped the *captain of the Host*? If this were a mere angel, then the angel would have protested Joshua worshipping him, just as the angel protested John the Revelator worshipping him (Rev 22:8-9). So Joshua met with God (Jesus Christ) the *captain of the Host*. That is why he stood on holy ground and was asked to remove his shoes (just like Moses was asked in Exo 3:5 and Acts 7:33). Therefore, in Rev 12:7 you have Satan and his angels, and Jesus (Michael, the *captain of the Host*) and His angels - this was the war that began in heaven and continues today.

    And what does the name Michael mean? It means *who (is) like God?* A very good question indeed - who is like Jesus?

    As this study shows, according to scriptures, Jesus is the angel of the LORD, the angel of God, the angel of the covenant, the Archangel Michael, who appeared time and again in the Old Testament to speak directly to His people. Michael is just another title for the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who is God in the flesh, the principle messenger of the gospel (archangel) to humanity, but He is not a created being.
     
  3. Chrissy

    Chrissy <img src=/claudia2.gif>

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    by Doug Batchelor and David Boatwright
    An Amazing Fact: When King Humbert of Italy came to the throne, Naples was on the verge of insurrection against the monarchy. Politicians were urging violent measures to force the stubborn city into submission, but King Humbert would not allow this. Then there was a sudden outbreak of cholera and the dreaded disease raged with deadly fury in the city of Naples. Ignoring the warnings of his advisors, the young king, moved with devotion and love for even his disloyal subjects, left the palace and went alone through the crowded hospitals of Naples, ministering to his subjects with his own royal hand. Many suffering people breathed prayers of gratitude to this young medical servant, not knowing it was the very king they had spurned.
    When the plague was finally checked, many people learned the true identity of the noble nurse who had cared for them during the deadly crisis. Naples then became a conquered city-conquered by the love and pity of the monarch it had once refused. From then on, the people of Naples became Humbert's most loyal subjects.

    The Michael Enigma
    Questions frequently arise in Christian circles about the true identity of the biblical Michael, sometimes called "Michael the great Prince" or "Michael the archangel." Some claim that Michael is the highest of the heavenly angels, one of the covering cherubs, or a special messenger like Gabriel, and as such is a created being. Others, such as the Bible commentator Matthew Henry, assert that Michael is simply another name for Jesus Himself. Can we know the real identity of this mysterious individual? The key to this puzzling question is found in the Scriptures.

    A quick look in a Bible concordance reveals that there are 15 references to the name Michael. The first 10 of them are found in Old Testament chronologies and obviously refer to real people named Michael. In fact, the entry for "Michael" in the lexicon (a Greek and/or Hebrew dictionary) states: "The name of an archangel and nine Israelites." It is the identity of Michael, the archangel and prince, mentioned in the last five references that we are seeking.

    The first three of these references are in the apocalyptic Old Testament book of Daniel. The last two are in the New Testament books of Jude and Revelation. During an honest study and comparison of these verses and others, clues emerge that lead us to an inescapable conclusion that the identity of Michael is none other than Jesus, God the Son, and that He is not a created angel, but God's eternal Son!

    At first glance it appears that the Old Testament portrays Michael as a prince and the New Testament as an angel. But by looking at other related scriptures where similar language and wording are used, we will see a different pattern emerge.

    It's in the Name
    First, let's consider the meaning of some words and names. In the Greek New Testament, as compared to the Old Testament, the word "angel" means "messenger," and "arch" means "chief, principle, greatest, or highest." So "archangel" simply means "highest or greatest messenger." The Hebrew name "Michael" means "who is like God" or "Who is like God?" Whether this name is a question, statement, or a challenge will be clear by further study. One angel did profess to be like God. That fallen being is Lucifer, the covering cherub in the heavenly courts who became the devil, Satan, by claiming to "be like the most High" (Isaiah 14:14). In Revelation 12:7 Satan is opposed by "Michael and his angels" and is cast out of heaven.

    It is not implausible to assume that if Christ came to earth and became a man in His battle against Satan to save human beings, He might also have identified with the angels to protect them from Satan's evil influence in heaven. In fact, there are several references in Scripture to a mysterious being identified as "the angel of the Lord" before Christ's earthly incarnation. Yet each time He is mentioned there are clues to His identity. Let's review them briefly.

    Hagar
    After Hagar bore Ishmael to Abraham, she and the barren Sarah could no longer coexist peacefully. Sarah mistreated her now haughty handmaid until Hagar fled into the desert. "And the angel of the Lord found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness" (Genesis 16:7). The angel told Hagar to go back and submit to Sarah, and promised that her son, Ishmael, would be the father of a great nation. When the "angel" disappeared, Hagar, "called the name of the Lord that spake unto her, Thou God seest me" (verse 13). It appears Hagar recognized that the "angel" who had spoken to her was really God.

    Abraham
    God told Abraham to sacrifice his son, Isaac, on mount Moriah. Just as he was about to plunge the dagger into his son of promise, the angel of the Lord stopped him. "And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me" (Genesis 22:11, 12).

    It is clear that Abraham was offering his son to God and not to a mere angel. "And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: That in blessing I will bless thee, … because thou hast obeyed my voice" (Genesis 22:15-18). In recounting this experience of Abraham in Acts 3:25, Peter also identifies this "angel of the Lord" as God.

    Jacob
    While fleeing from his angry brother Esau, Jacob had a dream in which God confirmed the covenant of Abraham to him. After receiving assurance that God would be with him and bring him back safely to his home in Canaan, Jacob vowed to return to God a tithe of all his increase. He set up the stone he had been using for a pillow and anointed it with oil to solemnize his vow. Then he named the place Beth-el, or house of God, since God had appeared to him there.

    Twenty years later Jacob was on his way back home, not a penniless fugitive, but a wealthy man. God reminded Jacob who had really brought him success. Here's how Jacob recounted the story: "And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I" (Genesis 31:11). In verse 13 this "angel of God" identifies Himself: "I am the God of Beth-el, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me."

    Then, when Jacob wrestled with a heavenly being (Genesis 32:22-32), he was given a new name and blessed. Jacob called the name of the place Peniel, "For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved" (verse 30). In the New Testament, Jesus is the one who blesses His people and gives them a new name (Matthew 5:3-12; Revelation 2:17). Clearly, the angel of the Lord is Jesus Himself.

    When Jacob was on his death bed blessing Joseph's two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, he used the terms "angel" and "God" interchangeably. "God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day, The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads" (Genesis 48:15, 16). Once again we see that the angel who redeemed Jacob is another name for our Redeemer, Jesus!

    Moses
    Moses saw a burning bush that was not consumed. "And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush" (Exodus 3:2). Verse four identifies this angel: "God called unto him out of the midst of the bush." And in verse six He identifies Himself. "I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." The angel of the Lord identifies Himself as God!

    In his last sermon before he was stoned to death, Stephen agrees with the Exodus account. "And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush. When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him, Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob" (Acts 7:30-32).

    In another instance, the children of Israel were led through the wilderness by God, "And the Lord went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night" (Exodus 13:21). Moses describes it this way: "And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them" (Exodus 14:19). Again, "the angel of God" is identified as God.

    Balaam
    In the story of Balaam and his talking donkey, the angel of the Lord again figures prominently. It is this angel who nearly kills the covetous prophet, who is on his way to curse God's people, and saves the donkey from her merciless master (Numbers 22:21-35). After Balaam's close brush with death, "the angel of the Lord said unto Balaam, Go with the men: but only the word that I shall speak unto thee, that thou shall speak" (verse 35). The next chapter reveals who put the words in the prophet's mouth: "And God met Balaam: … And the Lord put a word in Balaam's mouth, and said, Return unto Balak, and thus shalt thou speak" (Numbers 23:4, 5). Here again, "the angel of the Lord" turns out to be God Himself.

    Gideon
    Gideon had an encounter with the angel of the Lord in the book of Judges. The angel told Gideon that the Lord was with him. Gideon pointed to the oppression of Israel by the Midianites as evidence to the contrary. "And the Lord looked upon him, and said, Go in this thy might, and thou shalt save Israel from the hand of the Midianites: have not I sent thee?" (Judges 6:14). Throughout the rest of the narrative, the person speaking to Gideon is identified interchangeably as the Lord, the angel of the Lord, and the angel of God.

    Manoah
    Samson's mother, the wife of Manoah, was barren. "And the angel of the Lord appeared unto the woman" (Judges 13:3). This angel told her she would bear a son who would deliver the apostate Israelites from their heathen oppressors. She quickly called Manoah, who prayed for another visit from the "man of God." When the angel came the second time, Manoah asked him his name. The King James Version of the Bible says that the angel told Manoah that his name was "Secret," with a margin notation that translates it as "Wonderful." This immediately makes us think of Isaiah's familiar prophecy that the name of the coming Messiah would be "Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isaiah 9:6). The name "Wonderful" for the angel of the Lord who appeared to Manoah connects this "angel" with the coming Messiah who was to be called "Wonderful."

    No One Has Seen the Father
    Suddenly we have more leads than we can follow at once. The "angel of the Lord" is clearly shown to be God. But the Bible states, "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him" (John 1:18). John 6:46 tells us, "Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father." Obviously, since no man has seen God the Father, all of these Old Testament sightings of God as the "angel of the Lord" must have been Jesus, God the Son, veiling His glory so they could endure His presence without being consumed.

    Rebuking the Accuser
    There is one more important reference where the angel of the Lord appears in the Old Testament. The prophet Zechariah was given a vision of Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord. Satan is standing at his right hand to resist him. Here we see two adversaries contending over a sinful human being. In this case the sin is represented by Joshua's filthy garments (Zechariah 3:3).

    In this narrative the name changes quickly from "the angel of the Lord" (verse 1) to "the Lord" (verse 2), indicating again that they are one and the same. Then the Lord makes an interesting statement. "And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan" (Zechariah 3:2) There is only one other place in Scripture, Jude verse nine, where this sentence is found, and it is spoken by Michael the archangel!

    In the small New Testament epistle of Jude we see a vignette similar to Joshua and the angel in the book of Zechariah. "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee" (Jude 1:9). The situations are amazingly parallel. Christ and Satan are contending over a sinner. A live one in the case of Joshua, and a dead one in the case of Moses. The debate is ended abruptly when Jesus says, "The Lord rebuke thee." Jesus also rebuked the devil when He was tempted in the wilderness. "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan" (Luke 4:8).

    Michael the Prince
    Isaiah's prophecy about the Messiah (Isaiah 9:6) reveals a key word that bears investigating. One of the names he says that would apply to the Messiah is "Prince of Peace." This immediately reminds us of the three verses in Daniel in which Michael is called a "prince."

    There is another verse in Daniel where the "Prince of princes" is mentioned. Again the cosmic conflict is being played out with Christ on one side and the devil on the other, with humanity serving as the battlefield. Symbolic names identify the two arch foes. Both struggle to gain control, Satan against our will and Christ only with our willingness.

    "Prince of princes" is actually the same term that is translated "prince of the host" in verse 11. This is similar to "Lord of lords" (Psalm 136:3), "God of gods" (Deuteronomy 10:17), and "King of kings" (Revelation 19:16). All these are titles of deity. He is even referred to as "Messiah the Prince" (Daniel 9:25).

    One, or First?
    Daniel 10:13 is probably the most difficult verse regarding Michael: "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me." It appears at first glance that Michael is only "one of" the chief princes. This is an unfortunate translation in the King James Version. The word "one" comes from the Hebrew word "echad" which also means "first," as in "first day" (Genesis 1:5). This changes the whole meaning of the verse to Michael being first of, or highest of, the chief princes. Again, a reference to Jesus.

    The Voice of Michael
    If we take the term "Michael the archangel" and examine the word "archangel," we see another interesting match. The only other passage in the Bible that uses the word "archangel" is 1 Thessalonians 4:16. But look at its context. "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first." It is the voice of the archangel that raises the dead in Christ, and the Lord Himself who shouts it. This indicates that they are one and the same. Jesus is the one who shouts with the voice of the archangel, or "greatest Messenger," to raise the dead!

    Obviously, angels don't have the power to resurrect the dead. Only God who gives life has the power to restore it. "For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself. … Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth" (John 5:26, 28, 29).

    In Jude we see the archangel contending with the devil for the body of Moses, who, incidentally, was resurrected and taken to heaven from whence he appeared on the mount of transfiguration to encourage Christ (Mark 9). In 1 Thessalonians, the apostle Paul describes the resurrection as happening in response to the voice of the archangel. Again we see the parallel between these two verses; both describe the archangel in the act of resurrecting.

    When Michael stands up in Daniel chapter 12, there also follows a resurrection, and he is described as the one who, "standeth for the children of thy people" (verse 1). Commenting on this verse, Matthew Henry states: "Michael signifies, 'Who is like God,' and his name, with the title of 'the great Prince,' points out the Divine Savior. Christ stood for the children of our people in their stead as a sacrifice, bore the curse for them, to bear it from them. He stands for them in pleading for them at the throne of grace." Jesus is clearly the one who always stands in our place and for our defense.

    Worshiping the Commander
    In Revelation, Michael is portrayed as leading the heavenly hosts, or armies, in the war against the rebellious Lucifer that took place there. "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels" (Revelation 12:7). Here the term "dragon" is a symbolic name for Satan, the leader of evil (verse 9), so it is very safe to assume that Michael is another name for Jesus, the embodiment and leader of good. But there is more evidence.

    Just as Israel was preparing for its first battle after crossing into the Promised Land, Joshua had an encounter with an unusual warrior. "And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? And the captain of the Lord's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so" (Joshua 5:13-15).

    Not only did Joshua worship this being, but the heavenly captain received his worship. If he had been a mere angel, he would have rebuked Joshua just like the angel rebuked John for trying to worship him (see Revelation 19:10; 22:8, 9).

    In all the cases where the angel of the Lord accepts worship, it is clearly the Son of God. But where regular created angels are worshiped, they refuse it. Even Jesus reminded Satan in the wilderness, "For it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve" (Luke 4:8).

    In fact, all the created angels are commanded to worship Jesus as they did during His first advent. "And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him" (Hebrews 1:6). The devil is infuriated because he knows that someday even he will be compelled to acknowledge Jesus as king and worship Him. "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Philippians 2:10, 11).

    The phrase "Lord of hosts" is found 245 times in the Bible and refers to the "commander of God's angelic army." So the "captain of the Lord's host" that Joshua saw was not an angel, but Jesus Himself. That explains why He demanded that Joshua remove his shoes. The place was holy because Jesus was there, just as Jesus' presence at the burning bush made that ground holy for Moses. So Michael, the captain of the Lord's host, or army, is another title for Jesus.

    Who Is as God!
    When Phillip asked Jesus to show the disciples the Father, Christ responded: "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 14:9).

    Some think that God's Son waited 4,000 years to personally intervene in the affairs of man. Not so! Though it is true that the incarnation occurred 4,000 years after man's fall, God the Son has been personally involved in the history and affairs of His people.

    What a wonderful truth that Jesus, God's eternal Son, has ever been actively occupied in watching over, providing for, and protecting His children! He spoke face to face with Abraham and Moses and wrestled with Jacob. He led the Israelites through the wilderness, providing food and water and victory against their enemies.

    Remember that the title "Michael the archangel" means "The greatest messenger who is as God." It was Jesus, "the image of the invisible God" (Colossians 1:15), who brought the greatest message of hope, the gospel, to our perishing world!
     
  4. Chrissy

    Chrissy <img src=/claudia2.gif>

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    I didnt want to come back here to bother any of you if you dont want to hear what I have to say. But I did come and glance at a few comments, and saw the part about questioning our beliefs on Michael the Archangel. So I thought I'd share the above articles with you.


    ----------

    This (below) is a commentary on the incident of Jesus raising Lazarus. An added insight I wanted to give was that when in the article above I posted by Doug Batchelor, he said this "If we take the term "Michael the archangel" and examine the word "archangel," we see another interesting match. The only other passage in the Bible that uses the word "archangel" is 1 Thessalonians 4:16. But look at its context. "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first." It is the voice of the archangel that raises the dead in Christ, and the Lord Himself who shouts it. This indicates that they are one and the same. Jesus is the one who shouts with the voice of the archangel, or "greatest Messenger," to raise the dead!"

    ---think about tthe fact that it was the voice of Jesus Himself that caused Lazarus to rise from the grave. His is the ONLY voice that can do that. (Just a thought)

    ----------


    Jesus encouraged her faith by declaring to her, "Thy brother shall rise again." Martha, not comprehending the full meaning of Jesus, answered that she knew he would arise in the resurrection, at the last day. But Jesus, seeking to give a true direction to her faith, said, "I am the resurrection, and the life; he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live; and whosoever liveth and believeth in me, shall never die. Believest thou this?" Jesus would direct the thoughts of Martha to himself, and strengthen her faith in regard to his power. His words had a double meaning; not only did they refer to the immediate act of raising Lazarus, but they also referred to the general resurrection of all the righteous, of which the resurrection of Lazarus which he was then about to perform, was but a representation. Jesus declared himself the Author of the resurrection. He who himself was soon to die upon the cross, stood with the keys of death, a conqueror of the grave, and asserted his right and power to give eternal life.

    When Jesus asked Martha: "Believest thou?" she answered by a confession of her faith: "Lord, I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world." Thus Martha declared her belief in the Messiahship of Jesus, and that he was able to perform any work which it pleased him to do. Jesus bade Martha call her sister, and the friends that had come to comfort the afflicted women. When Mary came she fell at the feet of Jesus, also crying, "Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died." At the sight of all this distress, Jesus "groaned in the spirit, and was troubled, and said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see." Together they all proceeded to the grave of Lazarus, which was a cave with a stone upon it.

    It was a mournful scene. Lazarus had been much beloved, and his sisters wept for him with breaking hearts, while those who had been his friends mingled their tears with those of the bereaved sisters. Jesus had also loved Lazarus, whose faith had ever been strong in him, never wavering nor failing for a moment. In view of this human distress, and of the fact that these afflicted friends could mourn over the dead, when the Saviour of the world stood by, who had power to raise from the dead,--"Jesus wept." His grief was not alone because of the scene before him. The weight of the grief of ages was upon his soul, and, looking down the years that were to come, he saw the suffering and sorrow, tears and death, that were to be the lot of men. His heart was pierced with the pain of the human family of all ages and in all lands. The woes of the sinful race were heavy on his soul, and the fountain of his tears was broken up, as he longed to relieve all their distress.

    Seeing the tears and hearing the groans of Jesus, those who stood about said, "Behold, how he loved him!" Then they whispered among themselves, "Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died?" Jesus groaned within himself at the unbelief of those who had professed faith in him. They thought his tears were because of his love for Lazarus, and that he who had done such mighty works had been unable to save Lazarus from death. Burdened by the blind infidelity of those who should have had faith in him, Jesus approached the grave, and in tones of authority commanded that the stone should be rolled away. Human hands were, on their part, required to do all that it was possible for them to do, and then divine power would finish the work.

    But Martha objected to the stone being removed, and reminded Jesus that the body had been buried four days, and that corruption had already commenced its work. Jesus answered her reproachfully: "Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?" The stone was then taken away, and the dead was revealed to sight. It was evident to all that putrefaction had really commenced. All is now done that lies in the power of man to do. The friends gather round with mingled curiosity and awe to see what Jesus is about to do. Lifting up his eyes, the Saviour prayed:--

    "Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. And I knew that thou hearest me always; but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me." The hush that followed this prayer was broken by Jesus crying out with a loud voice, "Lazarus, come forth." Instantly life animates that form which had been so changed by decay that the friends of the deceased recoiled from looking upon it. Lazarus, bound hand and foot with grave-clothes, and with a napkin about his face, rises, obedient to the command of his Saviour, and attempts to walk, but is impeded by the winding-sheet. Jesus commands his friends to "loose him, and let him go."

    -----------

    God Bless :)

    [ February 20, 2003, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: Chrissy ]
     
  5. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    I know this wasn't posed to me, but I think I can help a little.

    We don't think Jesus is an Angel.

    That would make Him created.

    That would give Him a beginning.

    That could NOT work, considering HE IS GOD.

    WE DO, However think that when the Bible speaks of Michael (one who is like God) the ArchAngel (highest messenger) that it is ACTUALLY talking about Jesus.

    Not the other way around.

    Jesus is not an Angel.

    We believe that Michael is ANOTHER name given to the Second part of the Trinity.

    Make a little more sense?

    If that didn't clear it up, read all that stuff Chrissy posted. It explains it in depth.

    We don't think Jesus was an Angel

    God Bless
     
  6. dumbox1

    dumbox1 Guest

    Hi 3A,

    Might it be appropriate (if perhaps confusing) to say that you believe that Jesus was "an angel," but that you define "an angel" in this instance simply to mean "a messenger" and not necessarily "one of a class of created beings...."

    Mark

    P.S. -- I'm still holding out for the "Hasselhoff-Antichrist" theory.
     
  7. Abiyah

    Abiyah <img src =/abiyah.gif>

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    3AngelsMom --

    I don't read long posts like those on this board,
    but just go on by them. Also, when people add
    long ---- lines, it makes reading more difficult
    for many of us, because these cause te page to
    go way off the screen.

    However, would YOU explain how you believe
    Michael is our Lord?

    Thank you.
     
  8. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    Yes,

    But only if you use the 'Messenger' meaning and not the created being meaning.

    There are created beings in heaven, and around us that are called 'Angels' there are several types of Angel.

    There was only ONE Arch Angel.

    That is why we see a connection.

    Get it?

    (David Hasselhoff is retarded. Didn't he get hair plugs?)
     
  9. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    Do mine do that to you?

    I have a big monitor, and I just type away in this little box until it returns!

    Tell me if you can't see what I a writing, and I'll *enter* at the round of each line.

    I haven't read all of the posts that Chrissy put, but I have read the one by Doug Bachelor. If you can stand to go back and forth for a minute or two, his stance is just about as on target as you could get to how I feel about it.

    He has a very similar testimony to mine.

    God led him through the Bible, while he was in a cave. No outside influences. He didn't step foot into a SDA church until AFTER God had already shown him the Sabbath, the state of the dead, and a few others. He wrote a book called 'the Richest Caveman'. It is one of the best testimonies I have ever read.

    He did a sermon on the book (or maybe it is the other way around) anyhow, you can listen to it on the website www.amazingfacts.org

    That, and maybe even the sermon on Michael. I'll look, and see. That will save you from having to read it, cuz I think that is what it is. His sermon written down.

    Let me know if you are interested. He explains it really well.

    God Bless
     
  10. dumbox1

    dumbox1 Guest

    Hi 3A,

    Thanks for the clarification.

    Would the "Michael" in Daniel 12:1 (referred to as "the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people") be a different, presumably human, "Michael" then?

    Thanks,

    Mark
     
  11. Abiyah

    Abiyah <img src =/abiyah.gif>

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    No, your posts do not to that (that I can
    remember). It is only when someone puts a
    continuous line of type with no spacing, like:
    -------------------------------------.
    This one is short enough that it doesn't prevent
    reading. The trouble is that I cannot go back and
    forth on this system, so I just skip posts that do
    this. But I aso must skip everyone elses' on that
    page, too, because such posts make everyone
    else's posts on that page go way off. 8o(

    Also, I was looking for the short answer, not a
    whole sermon! 8oD I don't have the time, eyes,
    nor patience for the long posts. I don't have much
    time that I can be here, and even then, I limit
    myself to just a few threads.

    Oh, and also, my system will not allow sound.
     
  12. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    Actually I think that might be one of the verses that we draw from for our conclusion.

    The Daniel 12:1 Michael is Jesus.

    The verses that follow tell us plainly that it is referring to the second coming and the resurrection.

    Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
    Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
    Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
    Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

    Make sense?

    Jesus is the only one who has the power to raise the dead. He STANDS UP right as the plagues fall, and then WHOOSH He will resurrect the dead, and translate the living.

    Who else could it be? What 'Great Prince' of your people could raise the dead other than Jesus?

    God Bless [​IMG]
     
  13. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    So then your computer is really old!

    Ok, I'll explain it for you.

    Follow along with what I already posted to Mark, and ring in if you have any questions, ok?

    God Bless [​IMG]
     
  14. dumbox1

    dumbox1 Guest

    Hi 3A,

    Thanks for your reply. I'm wondering mostly about your statement earlier that there's only one archangel, since my handy online reference (Blue Letter Bible) says the common opinion was that there were either 4 or 7.

    I noticed that Dan. 10:13 refers to Michael as "one of the chief princes." I'm guessing that you would say either that this is a different Michael than the one in Dan. 12:1, or that plural "chief princes" doesn't necessarily mean plural "archangels." (Probably the latter).

    Am I on the right track, guess-wise?

    Mark
     
  15. Abiyah

    Abiyah <img src =/abiyah.gif>

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    8o) I don't use a computer for my internet service,
    but it comes, in with my cable sevice, to my TVs.
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Would the "Michael" in Daniel 12:1 (referred to as "the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people") be a different, presumably human, "Michael" then?

    A. - SDAs are fully Trinitarian. They do not believe Christ is or ever was a created being. They believe He is fully the 2nd person of the Godhead - fully God - eternal, all powerful etc.

    B. - The Michael of Daniel 12 and Rev 12 is taken to be "the ArchAngel" Michael - which is a "form" that God the Son took in His continued role to "Explain" the Father to finite beings. SDAs believe that God the Son's role as "the Word" - was from "the Beginning".

    C. In the book of Genesis God appears as a man in Genesis 18 for example. This does not mean that before the cross "God the Son WAS ontologically a man" he simply appeared in that form to Abram.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    Mark,

    (and Abie who is reading [​IMG] )

    Common opinion says 4 or 7. The Bible only called ONE Name when speaking of the ArchAngel.

    Michael. (Jude 1:19)

    There are actually only 2 Angels named in the Bible (other than Lucifer) and the other is Gabriel.

    The only other occurance of 'ArchAngel' is the 'voice' that Jesus will come with. [​IMG] (1 Thessalonians 4:16)

    Now, for the occurances of Michael, where He is actually called 'angel':


    (No I didn't forget to put the info in. THERE AREN'T ANY)

    He is ALWAYS called ArchAngel, when the *word* 'Angel' is put anywhere in reference to His name. The reason I can say ALWAYS is because it only happens ONCE. The other instance of ArchAngel is the one I mentioned above. Michael is the only Angel called 'ArchAngel'.

    He is usually called "Prince".

    Let's look at those.

    Dan 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

    If you read the full context of Chapter 10 you will see that Daniel was in vision, and he saw JESUS. Preincarnate Jesus. The very vivid description is in verses 5 and 6.

    (In certain appearances of 'The Angel of the Lord' appearing before men, and a man bowed down, the Angel (that is a created being) would tell them NOT to bow to them, but that they were fellow servants of God. Keep this in mind.)

    Daniel bowed down in front of this Visitor. He fell on his FACE. Went completely limp and STOPPED breathing. Only when 'He touched him' did he regain strength. Even then he only had enough strength to kneel. Once the message started he lost strength again, and then couldn't speak. The Visitor touched his lips and he spoke. Daniel called this Visitor 'My Lord' 4 times in this chapter. 2 of which are in this verse:

    Dan 10:17 For how can the servant of this my lord talk with this my lord? for as for me, straightway there remained no strength in me, neither is there breath left in me.

    Daniel identified this Visitor as 'My Lord'.

    Not only did the Visitor not rebuke him for falling down in front of Him, but He ALLOWED him to call Him LORD.

    In the Kingdom of heaven there is an Army. The Chief of the Army is Jesus. The Prince. He is SON of the King. (no trinity arguments here please) He Himself is the King, being God, but this part of the Being of God, is the Son, who was there prior to His incarnation as a Man. Prior to His incarnation He was called the Prince of Thy People. Why? Because He was the Son of the King of thy people! Michael means "who is like God". Who could be more like God than Jesus? Now, on that premise, look at this:

    Dan 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

    This is about the little horn. He magnified himself against the Prince of the Host. (who destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD....)

    He is not called the "Prince of the Host" any where else.

    But we do see Him acting as the Leader of the Host.

    Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

    Where did this happen? In heaven. There was a war in Heaven. Michael and HIS Angels (who's angels?) fought against the devil and HIS angels (who's?) Are the Angels Michaels? Do they belong to a mere angel, a created being? NO. They are GOD'S Angels. Michael the CHIEF MESSENGER (who is responsible for the greatest story ever told- The Gospel?) Who brought the Message of Peace, and for that matter who was the Prince of Peace?

    One more.

    There are few instances that God met with people personally. (we are PRIVILAGED to have the Holy Spirit).

    One notable one is when He met with Moses in the burning bush. Also when He met with him on the Holy Mountain and gave him the Law. One that stands out in my mind though is this one:

    Jos 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
    Jos 5:14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?
    Jos 5:15 And the captain of the LORD's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

    Same thing Moses had to do. Interesting huh?

    The Captain of the host of the Lord. Who Joshua IMMEDIATLY identified as LORD. He WORSHIPPED HIM. Now, if this was just an ordinary angel, run of the mill, happened to be the Captain, but none the less, was a regular angel, do you think that He would have told Joshua to take off his shoes? Would He have allowed him to call Him Lord? Not unless HE WAS.

    Now we come to the verse that you questioned.

    I hope you don't mind but I am going to tear it apart:

    Dan 10:13

    But the prince [sar]= leader, chief, ruler, prince
    of the kingdom [mamlakuwth]= kingdom
    of Persia [Parac]= Persia
    withstood me [`amad]= to stand [rkuwb]= chariot
    one and twenty days [esriym]= twenty ['echad]=one [yowm]= days
    : but, lo, [hinneh]= look
    Michael, [Miyka'el]= Who is like God?
    one of ['echad]= one, alone, only
    the chief princes [sar]= leader, chief, ruler, prince
    [ri'shown]= first, before, in another time (not in KJV)
    came [bow']= came, went, to go, to come
    to help me; [`azar]= to surround, help, protect
    and I ['aniy]= I, me, myself
    remained [luwn]= to stop, to stay
    there [sham]= there
    with [not in original]
    the kings [melek]= King
    of Persia. [Parac]= Persia

    So, let's put that all together:

    The ruler, prince, of Persia (most likely SATAN, the prince and power of the air, who was leading the world at that time from Persia.)stood in his chariot for twenty one days. LOOK, Who is Like God? The ONLY ONE Prince, FIRST came to surround, help, protect me, and I stayed there [with] the King of Persia. (not the prince, the KING)

    So SATAN was in power in Persia and stood against Michael, the One and Only Prince and Gabriel for 21 days. Michael came FIRST to surround and help and protect him and then Gabriel stayed there with the KING of Persia.

    Who is the King of Persia? We see here that the Prince of Persia that they were standing against for 21 days was Satan. When they overtook him, Gabriel then stayed there with the King, the man, of Persia, to guide him. With the devil gone, Gabriel stayed on to make sure he didn't come back.

    Why would they need to do this? Daniel was praying. The Visitor told him:

    Dan 10:12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.

    Now, WHEN did his words first start?

    Dan 10:2 In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks.

    How many days were they with the Prince of Persia?

    21 days. Or 3 weeks.

    As soon as he started praying, they went.

    Amazing.

    The Prince, Himself came to Daniels rescue.

    He said: "You are loved"

    Let's recap!

    Jesus is coming back!

    1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    With the VOICE of the ArchAngel.

    WHO is the ArchAngel?

    Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

    Who rebuked him?

    Michael!

    "Who is like God?"

    Jesus.

    The name He used prior to His incarnation was a question. One He intended to answer.

    Jesus is the answer.

    God Bless
     
  18. dumbox1

    dumbox1 Guest

    Hi 3A,

    I think my question was simpler than your answer (although I appreciate your hard work on it!).

    Anyhow, let me see if I'm understanding you right as to the particular verse I asked about. You seem to be saying that the KJV's translation ("one of the chief princes") is wrong, and that a more correct translation would be "the one-and-only prince" (or words to that effect).

    Have I got it?

    Thanks,

    Mark
     
  19. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    Mark,

    If you look at that verse, the word 'one' when accounting for the 'one day' in the 21 is the same word in hebrew as the word that immediatly precedes 'prince' when talking about Michael.

    Look at it again:

    But the prince [sar]= leader, chief, ruler, prince
    of the kingdom [mamlakuwth]= kingdom
    of Persia [Parac]= Persia
    withstood me [`amad]= to stand [rkuwb]= chariot
    one and twenty days [esriym]= twenty ['echad]=one [yowm]= days
    : but, lo, [hinneh]= look
    Michael, [Miyka'el]= Who is like God?
    one of ['echad]= one, alone, only
    the chief princes [sar]= leader, chief, ruler, prince
    [ri'shown]= first, before, in another time (not in KJV)
    came [bow']= came, went, to go, to come
    to help me; [`azar]= to surround, help, protect
    and I ['aniy]= I, me, myself
    remained [luwn]= to stop, to stay
    there [sham]= there
    with [not in original]
    the kings [melek]= King
    of Persia. [Parac]= Persia

    You see how, in the place where the number of days is given it says 'one' in the KJV, but down where it is talking about Michael they translated it 'one OF'?

    Doesn't really make sense, if it is the same word.

    So, YEAH, I am saying I think they mistranslated it! I could be wrong, but based on the evidence I have found through the original Hebrew, it should be 'one' in both places.

    I know you only asked a small question, but Abiyah is reading along, and I figured I might as well explain it for her!

    God Bless
     
  20. dumbox1

    dumbox1 Guest

    Thanks 3A!

    Not being a Hebrew scholar (I only know a smattering of words), I don't have an opinion on this translation question, myself.

    Do you know of any Bible versions that give a "singular" (similar to yours) translation to that verse, rather than a "plural" (like the KJV)? Also, out of curiosity, is there any Bible version that's most popular among SDA's?

    (Incidentally, I hope you don't mind the "3A" abbreviation ... ;) )

    Thanks,

    Mark
     
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