Who is the AntiChrist?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by JFox1, Jul 4, 2007.

  1. JFox1

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  2. BobRyan

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    Often 2Thess 2 is used as a text for antichrist. But the only author in scripture that uses the term "antichrist" is John and HE said that many had ALREADY come and that more were coming.

    But back to 2Thess 2 -- ultimately it is Satan himself appearing in the clouds of heaven with his angels to fool those on earth into thinking he is Christ appearing. I am sure that Satan is able to put on quite a convincing show - fooling a great many as 2Thess 2 states.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. Eliyahu

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  4. Dustin

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    Anti-christ is anything that opposes Jesus Christ and the Gospel.

    The Pope, bad doctrine, man-made traditions, Arianism, Gnosticism, paganism, liberal "christianity", modern evangelicism, pelagianism and all it's cousins so to speak...all examples of anti-christ.

    Of course, there are many more, like those nuts who claim they are Jesus, but basically, it is anything that opposes Christ and His work.


    Soli Deo Gloria,
    Dustin
     
  5. DQuixote

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    "The Mind Freak" David Blaine will become he, or is paving the way. Even so, come quickly, Lord Jesus. Your Bride awaits!
     
    #5 DQuixote, Jul 4, 2007
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  6. David Lamb

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    I was puzzled and saddened to see such things put out as if they were based on scripture.

    Does God's Word say that the Antichrist will be a law unto himself? No. The only place where the bible uses such a phrase is in Romans 2.14-15, where the theme is not the Antichrist:

    14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
    15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)


    Does God's Word say that the Antichrist will be linked to the Roman Catholic church? I know many Christians have believed that the Antichrist will be the pope or the papacy, but is that stated unequivically in the bible?

    Does God's Word say that the Antichrist will be linked with the European Union?

    Does God's Word say that the EU is a revived Roman Empire?

    To save misunderstanstanding, may I stress that I am not offering a personal opinion on Tony Blair, the European Union, or the Roman Empire. My comments only refer to what is mentioned in the introductory video on the link in the original post.
     
  7. BobRyan

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    The place that we find the link to Europe and the Pope is the Little horn of Dan 7 and 8 and the composit beast of Rev 13. But neither of these chapters says the word "Antichrist". This is also where the Bible predicts the persecution of the saints durin 1260 years of dark ages and where the bible predicts "he will think to change times and laws" making laws of his own.

    But the custom of calling this "antichrist" started many centuries ago. In fact the Popes were among the FIRST group to refer to fellow Popes as "antichrist". THEY did this even BEFORE Luther did!

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #7 BobRyan, Jul 7, 2007
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  8. David Lamb

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    Thanks Bob.

    I know that there are Christians who believe that the pope and the EU are referred to in Daniel 7 and 8 and Revelation 13. The supposed EU connection was especially widespread when the European Economic Community (as it was then known) did indeed consist of 10 countries, back in 1981. But such a link to the antichrist can only be an opinion. There are other opinions, such as (as far as the EU goes) those found in all commentaries on Daniel and Revelation written before the EU was founded in 1993, or at least, before its predeccessor, the European Economic Community, was founded in 1957.
     
    #8 David Lamb, Jul 7, 2007
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  9. BobRyan

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    I am simply pointing to the fact that from a world history POV the EU connection in Daniel 7 is innescapable. Nobody (not even the RCC if you read some RC authors like Martin and RC historians like Bokenkotter) deny that the when pagan Rome fell the far more extensive Papacy arose in it's place dominating europe FAR LONGER and to a more micro-managed extent than pagan Rome ever did.

    This is world history 101 sir.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. David Lamb

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    Sorry Bob, I think a misunderstanding has crept in somewhere (my fault I expect, so I apologise).

    I agree that the RC church took the place of the pagan Roman Empire. But the original post in this thread gave a link to a web site with a video clip that included the words: "and the European Union which is a revival of the Roman Empire." That was what I was referring to in my post.

    By the way, can you tell me what "World history 101" mean? (Possibly an American expression I haven't come across before.)
     
  11. Eliyahu

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    Mt 16:3
    And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?

    We must know how to discern the signs of the times.

    If anyone cannot read the signs of the times, he or she is stupid!


    What are the requirements or the signs for the Anti-Christ?

    Rev 17
    4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS( abomination of Idolatry) OF THE EARTH. 6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.


    Interestingly the London Baptist Confession 1689 and some others said this:

    http://www.remnantofgod.org/4fathers.htm

    The Roman Catholic church has always 'claimed' to be walking "with" Christ. Just as Judas "kissed" Christ, so has Rome "kissed" His Truth. They "softly and gently" send their wolves forward wearing the clothing of a little lamb so as to gentle draw the masses away from Christ. They betray Christ as soft as the kiss of JUDAS!

    Arnulf Bishop of Orleans (Roman Catholic)
    "deplored the roman popes as "monsters of guilt" and declared in a council called by the King of France in 991ad that the pontiff, clad in purple and gold, was, "Antichrist, sitting in the temple of God, and showing himself as God" -Phillip Schaff, History of the Christian church, 8 vols., reprint of the 3d (1910)ed. (Grand Rapids Mich.: Wm. B Eerdmans Publishing Co., n.d.)

    Eberhard II, archbishop of Salzburg (Roman Catholic)
    "stated at a synod of bishops held at Regensburg in 1240 (some scholars say 1241) that the people of his day were "accustomed" to calling the pope antichrist." -LeRoy Edwin Froom, The Prophetic Faith of our Fathers, 4 vols. (Wash DC: Review and Herald publishing assc, 1950-1954)

    John Wycliffe
    "When the western church was divided for about 40 years between two rival popes, one in Rome and the other in Avigon, France, each pope called the other pope antichrist - and John Wycliffe is reputed to have regarded them as both being right: "two halves of Antichrist, making up the perfect Man of Sin between them." -Ibid

    Martin Luther (Lutheran)
    "We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist...personally I declare that I owe the Pope no other obedience than that to Antichrist." (Aug. 18, 1520) Taken from The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Vol. 2., pg. 121 by Froom. (In response to a papal bull [official decree]): "I despise and attack it, as impious, false... It is Christ Himself who is condemned therein... I rejoice in having to bear such ills for the best of causes. Already I feel greater liberty in my heart; for at last I know that the pope is antichrist, and that his throne is that of Satan himself." --D'Aubigné, b.6, ch. 9.


    Cotton Mather (Congregational Theologian)
    "The oracles of God foretold the rising of an Antichrist in the Christian Church: and in the Pope of Rome, all the characteristics of that Antichrist are so marvelously answered that if any who read the Scriptures do not see it, there is a marvelous blindness upon them." Taken from The Fall of Babylon by Cotton Mather in Froom's book, The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Vol. 3, pg. 113.

    John Wesley (Methodist)
    Speaking of the Papacy he said, "He is in an emphatical sense, the Man of Sin, as he increases all manner of sin above measure. And he is, too, properly styled the Son of Perdition, as he has caused the death of numberless multitudes, both of his opposers and followers... He it is...that exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped...claiming the highest power, and highest honour...claiming the prerogatives which belong to God alone." Taken from Antichrist and His Ten Kingdoms by John Wesley, pg. 110.


    Thomas Cranmer (Anglican)
    "Whereof it followeth Rome to be the seat of antichrist, and the pope to be very antichrist himself. I could prove the same by many other scriptures, old writers, and strong reasons." (Referring to prophecies in Revelation and Daniel.) Taken from Works by Cranmer, Vol. 1, pp. 6-7.


    Roger Williams (First Baptist Pastor in America)
    He spoke of the Pope as "the pretended Vicar of Christ on earth, who sits as God over the Temple of God, exalting himself not only above all that is called God, but over the souls and consciences of all his vassals, yea over the Spirit of Christ, over the Holy Spirit, yea, and God himself...speaking against the God of heaven, thinking to change times and laws; but he is the son of perdition (II Thess. 2)." Taken from The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers by Froom, Vol. 3, pg. 52.


    1689 London Baptist Confession
    Chapter 26: Of the Church. The Lord Jesus Christ is the Head of the church, in whom, by the appointment of the Father, all power for the calling, institution, order or government of the church, is invested in a supreme and sovereign manner; neither can the Pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof, but is that antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the church against Christ, and all that is called God; whom the Lord shall destroy with the brightness of his coming. ( Colossians 1:18; Matthew 28:18-20; Ephesians 4:11, 12; 2 Thessalonians 2:2-9 )

    John Knox (Scotch Presbyterian)
    Knox wrote to abolish "that tyranny which the pope himself has for so many ages exercised over the church" and that the pope should be recognized as "the very antichrist, and son of perdition, of whom Paul speaks." Taken from The Zurich Letters, pg. 199 by John Knox.

    John Calvin (Presbyterian)
    "Some persons think us too severe and censorious when we call the Roman pontiff Antichrist. But those who are of this opinion do not consider that they bring the same charge of presumption against Paul himself, after whom we speak and whose language we adopt... I shall briefly show that (Paul's words in II Thess. 2) are not capable of any other interpretation than that which applies them to the Papacy." Taken from Institutes by John Calvin.

    Presbyterian Church (Year 2000)
    Therefore: The South Atlantic Presbytery of the Bible Presbyterian Church, at its spring meeting in the Bible Presbyterian Church of Charlotte, N.C., March 25, 2000, resolves and warns the Roman Catholic Church, Mystery, Babylon the Great, Mother of Harlots and abominations of the earth (Rev 17:5) constitutes the greatest threat to fundamental Christianity in the 21st century! The Roman Catholic Church has long since forsaken the Bible alone, Grace alone, faith alone, and Christ alone. There should be no confraternity with this apostate church in ministerial associations, community easter sunrise services, Thanksgiving services, mass evangelism or common social endeavors. We admonish devout believers to lovingly and firmly win Roman Catholics to Christ and urge new converts to obey Rev. 18:4, "And I heard a another voice from heaven, saying, come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sin, and that ye receive not her plagues."


    http://www.remnantofgod.org/4fathers.htm
     
    #11 Eliyahu, Jul 7, 2007
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2007
  12. Eric B

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    "Antichrist" is just the term given to the human leader of the final endtime rebellion against the returning Christ. The biblical prophetic term for him is "the Beast" (when referring to the individual leader, and not the successive kingdoms leading to the the one he rules over, which are also collectively called "the Beast"). It's true that anyone who opposes the cause or doctrine of Christ is "anti-Christ", but the prophesied person leading the ultimate opposition to Christ was known as "THE Antichrist". John warns us that anyone denying Christ is of immediate concern to us. (And he does not deny the future ruler, onl;y tells us not to worry exclusively about him).

    Also, since people have identified the Roman Empire as Daniel's fourth beast, and Rome's conquest of all the kingdoms symbolized by the composite beast in Rev. 13, that is why the final "beast" power is projected to be whichever one stems from the old Empire (i.e. a Western European superpower, involving all of the same lands and nationalities of the old Roman Empire), and the EU, right now would seem to fit that profile, though it it still largley in the "dormant" state.
     
  13. Eliyahu

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    Just to refine this concept a little further, I would recall the Bible verses as follows:

    1 John 4
    3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


    So, there have been many anti-christs so far, but the main concern is about The Anti-Christ during the end times, and I believe he has not come yet.

    2 Thess 2
    3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

    After Oslo agreement was made in 1993 it was followed by Oslo II and other subsequent agreements which contain the following concepts:


    But how do we obtain Peace - NOW?The Christian churches have built many churches in Israel on the traditional sites that commemorate the events in Jesus life and ministry, but the Catholic church has not recognized Israel as a nation until just lately. The Catholic church has proposed that Jerusalem be made an International City under their jurisdiction. The Vatican proposed agreement would have the Vatican and the Pope take the over-sight of the Old City of Jerusalem and the temple mount. The government of Israel and the Palestinian Authority would not have the final authority on the city. It would be the Vatican that would solve the age old conflict. The Vatican proposal was acceptable to Peres, Arafat and the Pope.

    http://jpdawson.com/vatagree.html

    In other words, the whole layout is as follows:

    1) East Jerusalem will become the International City while West Jerusalem will remain in the reign of Israel. East Jerusalem has the most historical ruins and heritages, and it will have an International Airport so that people may travel to Jerusalem directly without passing thru Israeli airport

    2) Palestine will secure the State-ship, a complete independence.

    3) Vatican will help the whole process thru EU countries as the most of the EU countries are the Catholic dominated countries such as France, Italy, Ireland, Poland, Spain, Austria, Croatia, Portugal, Belgium plus Catholic Majority countries like Germany, Romania etc.

    4) Palestine will hand over Temple Mount to Vatican in compensation for the Stateship.

    5) The Peacekeeping forces will be provided by EU countries which are dominated by Catholics.


    The cherished desire of RCC will be accomplished as Vatican will relocate her headquarter to Temple Mount. Then the Pope will sit and stand in the Temple Mount( as Mt 24 and 2 Thess 2 predicted)
    I am not sure whether the first Pope who sits in the Temple Mount will be the ANTICHRIST, but by that time the most of the world religions will be integrated under the umbrella of Roman Catholic as RCC is working very hard to integrate and embrace many religions including MUslim and Buddhism, and Protestants thru Ecumenical movements etc.
    I find there is no problem in integrating Buddhism by RCC because they are accustomed to Idol worship and they exchange certain philosophical consensus often.
    RCC will be the royal members of the Integrated World Religion. The only problem will be the Hard-Headed Fundamental Protestant Christians, Especially Baptists and Brethren. These guys must be threatened first and if they don't convert, they will be tortured and killed. Will you betray your faith then?

    The Anti-Christ may be a converted Jew, may be from Dan tribe.

    As for the Oslo II and Vatican involvement, Israel National Radio reported such appetite of Vatican for the Temple Mount.
    This is the scenario, which I foresee, regardless you believe or not:wavey:
     
    #13 Eliyahu, Jul 7, 2007
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  14. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    GE:

    I have read 2Thess2, just to make sure. So I found everthing as you say, except "appearing in the clouds of heaven with his angels"? You really think the devil needs that to fool everybody as he does all the time?
     
  15. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Eliyahu:

    "We must know how to discern the signs of the times."

    GE:

    As a matter of interest, maybe, here are a few things of interest to me in this connection:

    It shall be as in the day of Noah - everything normal, when unexpectedly ....

    He shall come to destroy the destroyers of the earth --- while everybody just does the usual thing to pollute, deplete, and foul the earth instead of fill it.
     
    #15 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jul 7, 2007
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  16. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    I have always held that the anti-christ is the state - in whichever form or appearance. (It could be a church-state, nevertheless the state.) The government of the day of the land in any land is anti-christ. Check up; you'll find it's true. I am a South African, and 'Boer' or 'Afrikaner' -- understand me from that background. It's why I won't ever believe differently. Today's government in this land of mine just like the one before it, is anti-christ. I'll die with this conception of anti-christ.
     
  17. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Behind every government there is a government. Do not look into the future for that; look into today. Who or what else than the great anti-christ, the Vatican alias pope alias RCC?

    No. I wasn't afraid to say it in bigger print; just wanted to say it so I forgot to use larger letters.​
     
    #17 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jul 7, 2007
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  18. Eliyahu

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    There is a certain nuance there. Anti-Christ may be different from the State itself. So, Revelation tells us the two posts system, Great Harlot and the Beast. The Religious Organization will work behind the Government in order to persecute the Christian believers. The government and the religion will closely cooperate to persecute the True Believers.
    When Jesus was killed, Pilate tried to release Him, but the fake believers of God insisted on killing Him and the government served for the fake believers of God by killing Jesus.

    We will see how the things will progress as we live in a dramatic era.
     
  19. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    GE:

    What you have said is surely so. We already see it; have seen it. Antichrist today is as alive as ever before or after -- and as active. Maybe for the time less brutally and more subtly. But we cannot be fooled.
     
  20. Eliyahu

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    I would rather be careful in terming The Anti-Christ, not the anti-christ, and believe The ANTI-CHRIST has not sit at the Temple yet ( Mt 24:15 and 2 Thess 2:4) though anti-christs are active everywhere now.

    When The ANTI-CHRIST shows up, South Africa may become safer than U.S., because U.S. may be collapsed by that time when Russia, Iran, and EU countries attack Israel as we read Ezekiel 37-39. Where will U.S. be gone? Will it be possible that those countries attack Israel if US is still a powerful country?
     

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