Who is the Author of Man's Spirit/Soul?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Heavenly Pilgrim, Jan 31, 2008.

  1. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
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    Are our natural parents able to recreate a spirit/soul by the uniting of a sperm and an egg or is God Himself the sole entity resposnsible for uniting the spirit/soul to us via that union with the flesh that makes us spiritual as well as physical entities? Another way to ask the question might be to ask if in fact the spirit/soul of man is the product of a mere physical union passed on by physical means, or is it God Himself that as the Creator of the spirit/soul of man must supernaturally unite it to the union of the egg and sperm for man to become a spriritual being?
     
    #1 Heavenly Pilgrim, Jan 31, 2008
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  2. annsni

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    Who knits the body in the womb? It is God.

    I had done fertility treatments and had 10 absolutely perfect eggs release. My hubby did his part. 10 eggs plus however many million sperm cells did not equal a baby. Another time after this, when we gave up the fertility treatments (found out the issue with my not ovulating), I ovulated and hubby was stuck in Ohio in a snowstorm for 3 more days. I still conceived even though we shouldn't have. After trying to become pregnant for SO many years, I finally came to realize it's just not about us. 1+1 does not equal two unless GOD has His hand in it.

    Thus, in my mind, it is God who makes the sperm fertilize the egg and it is God who makes that cell divide once, twice, three times. It is God who says to the one cell "You become an eyeball" and to the other cell "You become a toe".

    So to follow that, I really feel that it is God who knits the body together with the soul in the womb and there is absolutely nothing a mother, father, doctor or scientist can do to change that.
     
  3. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    OK. Let me illuminate on the direction I am trying to take this thread. I believe that most of on this list would agree that the physical, in and of itself is not moral, is not spiritual, and as such cannot sin nor pass on sin, or so at least it has been stated as such. Yet, sin is said to be an inherited trait by even some of those that deny sin is a physical trait. It would seem to me that we are in a dilemma theologically and intellectually. There are only two possible means by which sin can be transmitted in the sense in which OS seems to indicate. It is either by the flesh or by the spirit of man. If it is not by the flesh, for we have been told that it is ridiculous to believe that the flesh in and of itself is sinful, then it must be by the spirit, not?

    If God is in fact the soul agent able to instill a spirit within man, why cannot one logically assume that it is God that must in fact taint the spirit with sin prior to instilling it within the breast of man? If not, are any on the list going to take the position that man procreates the spirit of man and as such is the author of the spirits of their offspring?
     
  4. annsni

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    Hmm - Interesting question and one that's too much for my very tired mind to think of right now. LOL! I'll hit the hay and think about it and try to respond tomorrow. :)
     
  5. Danny Hurley

    Danny Hurley
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    Who is the author of Man's Sprit/soul

    Adam knew Eve his wife ; and she conceived and bare Cain and said I have gotten a man from the Lord. God had set in order that it was not good for man to be alone, so God made Adam an help meet for him. Adam said therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife. Now childbearing was set in order. We find cases where God shut the womb. and opened the womb. But to say that God causes all pregnanties alarms me, suppose a very young girl gets raped and becomes pregnant, did God cause that or did she get pregnant because of what God has set in order. Somethink to think about.
     
  6. annsni

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    I do not feel that God caused the rape I do think He certainly had a hand in that baby coming into the world.
     
  7. BobRyan

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    Maybe a better way to ask the question - is the spirit/soul a "function of biology" or is it an act of God.

    "Life" is in the domain of God alone. That includes biology. God alone can "make" a cell be alive according to Col 1. That means that if you radiate a cell to the point of cell-death. No amount of chemicals, catalysts, electricity is going to "bring it back to life".

    But my question for you is -- are you talking about the spirit/soul with or without the character - the sinful nature?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. BobRyan

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    In Col 1 we are told that "IN HIM all things HOLD TOGETHER" so that even the continuation of Creation is an act of God not just the start of some process that is then treated to "an absent/distant landlord". At some level God sustains the victim so that they may live and sustains Satan so that he may continue to live. This could easily be a multi-level multi-dimensional equation where God supernaturally provides some universal constants that allow all things to continue (kinda like the Matrix when you think about it - enabling both sides of the debate to engage one another)
     
    #8 BobRyan, Feb 1, 2008
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  9. Danny Hurley

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    Who is the author of Man's Spirit/Soul

    When healthly sperm unites healthly eggs Life begins, this is what God has ordained, regardless of who produces the sperm or eggs. I do understand from scripture that John the Baptist was fiiled with the Holy Ghost when his mother was still pregnant with him.
     
  10. skypair

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    Dan,

    I believe you are right to observe that the spirit exists within the womb. It consists of "grey matter" in which are "programmed" a few survival instincts -- sensory responses, actually. No sin; no sin guilt. "Tabula raza" except for these survival-type responses -- functions of the physical inheritance from each parent.

    IMO, it is the physical responses that form the sin nature. Hunger, thirst, pain, indigestion, sickness, etc. evoke innocent reactions at first. But once these responses are seen to draw attention to ourselves, the "vanity" that God made us subject to "in hope" (Rom 8:20) begins to be used is selfish, sinful ways.

    Think about it -- crying for your needs turns to crying for what you want or covet. Believing that everything is theirs to have, they take. It's not even sin until they can comprehend that it is wrong.

    Summary: God creates the soul -- parents the spirit and flesh. Children are born in innocence but inexorably drawn into sin being born under the curse of vanity.

    skypair
     
  11. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: That is indeed better. I will apply your advice in my posts. Thank you. :thumbs:
     
  12. Dr. L.T. Ketchum

    Dr. L.T. Ketchum
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    Three Theories of the Origin of the Soul

    1. All souls are eternal and pre-existent.

    There are two basic positions on pre-existence:

    A. Transmigration: This is the position behind reincarnation formulated during the 9th century BC in the composition of the Brahmana writings. After someone (animal or human) dies, the soul transmigrates from one body to another. The common word for the core of human existence in the Eastern Religions is the Atman or Purusha. There are many various beliefs regarding transmigration within Buddhism, Jainism, Chinese Taoism and Hinduism.
    B. Greek Platonism: This position believed all souls pre-existed in a Celestial World andfell into human bodies due to sin. In order to be liberated from the bondage of the material world (the body), the soul needed to be purified through various stages of reincarnation in order to return to a pure form of existence. Neo-Platonism (beginning during the 3rd century AD) was formed by the integration of Hindu and Platonian philosophies.

    Reincarnation is merely a “rebirth” of a pre-existing soul into a new life or new body. The Soul (Atman or Purusha) is the true and continuing essence of individuality often referred to as the Higher or True Self, the Divine Spark or the I. The last stage of reincarnation is known by many different terms; Nirvana, Enlightenment and Self Actualization to name a few. Most New Age Christians integrate various forms or degrees of these beliefs into Christianity.

    2. Creation: all souls and spirits are created by God either before time (pretemporal) or at birth

    3. Propagation: (Traducian) the soul and spirit are generated at conception as part of procreation.

    Only these latter two theories can be substantiated in anyway by Scriptural evidences. The first Scriptural mention of the soul is found in the creation account in Genesis.

    Read Genesis 2:4-7.

    The word translated “soul” in Genesis 2:7 is the Hebrew word nephesh (neh'-fesh). The word simply means a breathing creature. God “formed man” out of “the dust of the ground.” This refers to man’s material being and chemical construction. Then we are told that God “breathed into his nostrils the breath of life.” This is apparently unique to man. We are not told that God breathe life into any other breathing creature although there are thousands of species of breathing creatures. This act of God is what caused man to become “a living soul.” Although other breathing species have life, no where is it said they have a soul.

    The word “living” is translated from the Hebrew word chay (khah'-ee), which simply means alive or living. It was this act of God “breathing” into this lifeless mass of physical/material chemicals that caused this thing to become a distinct, unique entity with the ability to think, formulate ideas, develop personality and make personal decisions of the will. These two words “living soul” would be the result of God’s Spirit/Life being united with human form producing an eternal soul since the Life of God is eternal Life.

    It is obvious from Genesis 2:7 that the spirit and soul are distinct from one another but closely related. I believe they are really inseparable from one another. “Soul connotes that the immaterial part of man which is related to life, action, emotion. Spirit is that part within related to worship, communion, divine influence.” (Chafer’s Systematic Theology; Volume VII, page 291) The terms are so closely related they are often used interchangeably throughout the Word of God. That does not mean they are synonymous. In the fall of man, the Soul is lost and man became spiritually dead.

    It would seem that the Soul of man is the essence or intelligent composite of his sensuality (sight, touch, smell, hearing, taste) creating memory and physical awareness. It would seem that the Spirit of man is the essence or intelligent composite of his link to his spiritual existence (emotions, worship, communion, imagination, reason and divine influence) creating conscience and spiritual awareness.

    For instance, in I Corinthians 2:14-15 the Scripture refers to both the “natural man” and the “spiritual man.”

    Read I Corinthians 2:6-15.

    The word “natural” in I Corinthians 2:14 is from the Greek word psuchikos (psoo-khee-kos'). It means sensitive. It was used of the human senses as they act upon the animate, material world. Therefore the Soul of man is said to be “lost.” The word “lost” is never used of the Spirit of man. The word “lost” in the New Testament books is translated from the Greek word apollumi (ap-ol’-loo-mee). It refers to something ruined or destroyed. Man was created to bring God glory. That purpose was ruined/destroyed by mankind’s fall into sin. In this destruction/ruin of the Soul, man also lost his connection to the spiritual realm of his existence. Mankind was “blinded” to the spiritual and became “dead in trespasses and sins.” Mankind was not only separated from God’s existence (“dead”), he became completely ignorant of God and What God is because of the ruin/destruction of his Soul.

    Read Ephesians 2:1-3.

    Salvation is much more than a Fire Escape from Hell. Salvation is the restoration of a fallen Soul to God in fellowship, worship, and service. In salvation, the sensual (Soul) is reconnected to the spiritual (Spirit) and the restoration of communion/fellowship between God and the saved individual is restored.
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    How does this help us decide whether Souls are created or propagated (procreated)? If souls after the original creation are created by God upon birth or conception, then we must conclude that those souls were created by God as “lost” souls. David said, “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me” (Psalm 51:5). This makes God the creator of sinners.
    The idea that a child receives his/her soul upon birth was actually a part of the transmigration theory. In this theory, a divine Being created all souls. These souls are introduced into the Karma by birth over and over again until they achieve Enlightenment. There is really no Scriptural evidence that God created all souls before time or that He creates a soul for each new baby born/conceived into this world. If God creates a new Soul for each new baby when that baby is conceived/born, then creation is an ongoing process. This would be a contradiction against the statement of Scripture in Genesis 2:1-3.

    Read Genesis 2:1-3.

    The intent of these verses is that God ceased in His work of creation ending His creative work on the “seventh day” by blessing the seventh day (7 is the number of completion) and setting that day apart for Him. This act of sanctifying the seventh day was intent upon bringing the creation into a living and harmonious relationship with the Creator. The main emphasis of the text is that creation ended on the sixth day after which the creation was self-propagating; i.e., everything produced after its own kind.

    Read Genesis 1:20-28 and note the repeated statement "after its/his kind."

    The intent of these Scriptures is to show that God created a continuum. That continuum was through propagation/procreation. Every species was created with the ability to reproduce itself through propagation/procreation. All that a species is exists within its genetic makeup and was reproduced in the process of procreation.

    Propagation/procreation as well answers the question of when life begins. Life began when God created life. Life continues to be generated through the process of procreation. Therefore life continues to be propagated at conception in the fertilization of an egg by male sperm. Since all species are monogenetic (produce after their own kind), at the moment of conception a new life begins. In the human species, the fertilized egg is immediately body, soul and spirit. Although that child will grow for nine months in the womb before birth and grow for many years until adult maturity, all that this person will be is there in the egg in the genetic merging of the parents. Therefore all souls are created by God in the continuum of procreation.
     
  13. skypair

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    Lance, I really like your thoughtful development of the issue. :applause:

    I somewhat disagree with Chafer and see that, in the development of your following points, you seem to ignore his "system" yourself.

    My own view is that the SPIRIT is intellect, emotions, will; the FLESH is sensuality; the SOUL is conscience - our orientation regarding God and self. (Basically, our understandings of soul and spirit are reversed :saint: ). My basic ontology for that is that the Holy Spirit is the mind, emotions, and will of God and that His Spirit would properly, therefore, commune with our spirits, not with our soul. God would more obviously be the counterpart to our SOUL.

    For instance, in I Corinthians 2:14-15 the Scripture refers to both the “natural man” and the “spiritual man.”

    Yes.

    I nearly agree. The SOUL/conscience/"control center" is turned from God by sin. Man does become "ignorant of God and what God is" in his spirit (in his mind, emotions, will). But the spirit is not dead as the soul is and the spirit can still find our who and what God is -- indeed, does find out through God's "spirit"/"wisdom" that even speaks through nature, Rom 1!

    In conviction (pre-salvation revelation), the soul (oriented toward self) and spirit/mind (suddenly thinking toward God) are "divided asunder" (Heb 4:12) by the "word of God!" The hearer is left to 1) reconcile the 2 by repentance of the SOUL (self/authority/control center) toward God OR 2) reconcile the SPIRIT toward the continuation of self rule.

    I like your line of reasoning here. And I believe further that the soul and spirit are actually "created" by mom and dad -- two shall be one. They "procreate" one body into which they breath their 2 spirits and 2 souls into one person much as God and the Spirit "provide" the spirit and soul of Christ.

    skypair
     
    #13 skypair, Feb 2, 2008
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  14. skypair

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    I am very surprised...

    ...we have no "takers" for my previous post. :laugh: Does EVERYONE agree??

    skypair
     
  15. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Would it be fair, in light of your assumption, to claim that if one is not part of that 'continuum of procreation' such a one is simply not nor could they be human or possess a human soul?
     
    #15 Heavenly Pilgrim, Feb 7, 2008
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