Who is the whore drunk on the blood of saints?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Soulman, Apr 23, 2005.

  1. Soulman

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    Revelation 19:2
    For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

    Who is this whore? What false religion is masking itself as the bride of Christ? What religion is responsible for killing millions of christians in the name of Christ?
     
  2. av1611jim

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    Who says it is talking about killing christians exclusively?

    I see that "great whore" as none other than Babylon revived.

    The passage says nothing about christians. It says "His servants". This would absolutely have to include all the martyred prophets also and they were not christians, obviously.

    Secondly who says it is a false "bride of Christ"?
    It is called a whore. God called His owen people in the OT an adulteress. (aka whore).

    Read Rev. 18 again and then compare it to Hosea and Jeremiah and Lamentations and Isaiah and Zechariah and Micah.

    Sorry. No donut for you. ;)

    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
  3. robycop3

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    A close reading of Revelation shows the city to be Rome. Don't have time to explain it all this AM, but only ONE major city in the old days was said to "sit on seven mountains". The "city of seven hills" has been one of Rome's nicks since it became prominent in the world.
     
  4. mioque

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    Ahum..
    Presently living in a 2000 year old city that is not Rome but that is also build on 7 hills.
     
  5. Keith M

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    Years ago, in my youth, I heard a Baptist preacher say that Revelation's whore is the Roman Catholic church. personally, I think Revelation's whore is the ecumenical church, and that it will at some future time, be based in Rome, probably trying to replace the Catholic Church.
     
  6. RON35951

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    "the great whore" - any or all false religion

    "corrupt the earth with her fornication" - a false religion that will spread throughout the earth.

    "the blood of his servants" - Protestants, Catholics, Anglicans, Muslims, Jews and Athiests have all been guilty of this. Besides the massacre that this refers to may still be future.

    It is best not to speculate but be watchful. Many Catholics are saved. Many more may be saved if we will attempt to reach them rather than accuse them falsely.

    In my opinion "the great whore" may be a culmination of all false religions (including Athiests) against the true Church. We are beginning to see an increasingly hostile attitude toward the Church. It is being characterized as the source of intolerance and will be seen as the enemy of modern society. But again this is only an opinion.

    But in any case we should remember that even many Baptists could seen as unfaithful.
     
  7. Watchman

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    Verse 18: "And the woman whom you saw is that great city..."
    The woman is a city, and by the description, could it be anything but Rome?
    While I cannot be dogmatic about details, but it seems from scripture that God Himself will put into the hearts of certain people to destroy it. By the terms of some passages like "...the smoke of her burning..." I do feel like the city will be nuked sometime in the future.
     
  8. natters

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    Jerusalem also has 7 hills, and is responsible both before and after Christ for martyring prophets and saints. Numerous OT passages speak of her whoredom.

    I'm not saying this is certain, but it is a possibility.
     
  9. fcs25

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    One thing is for sure not one protestant denomination[includes all 33,000 of them];can claim to have been in existence past 500yrs ago_Only one church can claim that right.......The Holy Catholic Church!A reading of the early church fathers beginning in 90ad proofs this as a fact.
     
  10. av1611jim

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    One must understand the any new revelation God gave concerning end times (as far as I can tell) never superceded that which He had already given. Because of that one must look to the OT to find out what God is expanding on in the NT. The book of Revelation is not an isolated book to be interpreted by itself. And it is also not a book to be interpreted solely on historical grounds. One needs to try to understand the audience the book was written to at the time. (as well as us, I might add) In the context of the time, it was Jerusalem which was guilty of the blood of God's servants. Go back into the OT and see what God has to say about the relationship between Babylon and HIs people.

    Natters; you are on the right track I believe.
    To say dogmatically that it is Rome is imposing our recent interpretation (based on Rome's history) back 2000 years and we ought not do this.
    Again, I say, do a search on Babylon and see what you come up with. Babylon is very often used metaphorically to mean God's apostate people, The Jews of the diaspora.

    Also, the only time the world is focused on the Vatican is when the pope traipses around waving his stick a people around the world. But the world has been focused on Israel now, without exception, for at least 35 years. The world can be said to be "drunk" with its obsession with the "peace of Jerusalem". But we know there IS no peace in Jerusalem.

    I think we have had our collective eschatological eyes in the wrong place.

    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
  11. mioque

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    "Only one church can claim that right.......The Holy Catholic Church!"
    "
    You forgot the Eastern-Orthodox churches and the Oriental-Orthodox churches which are all just as old.
     
  12. Grasshopper

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    I think we can let the OT and NT scriptures tell us who the Harlot/Whore was. It is a mistake to take it out of the 1st century context:

    "The Great City"

    Babylon

    Rev 18:18 and cried out as they looked upon the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like the great city?
    19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and mourning, saying, Woe, woe, the great city, wherein all that had their ships in the sea were made rich by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

    Jerusalem

    Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies lie in the street of the great city , which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

    "Whore and Adultery"

    Babylon

    Rev 17: 5 and upon her forehead a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF THE HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

    Jerusalem

    Ez 6: 9 And those of you that escape shall remember me among the nations whither they shall be carried captive, how that I have been broken with their lewd heart, which hath departed from me, and with they eyes, which play the harlot after their idols: and they shall loathe themselves in their own sight for the evils which they have committed in all their abominations.

    Ez 16:15 But thou didst trust in thy beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy whoredoms on every one that passed by; his it was.
    16 And thou didst take of thy garments, and madest for thee high places decked with divers colors, and playedst the harlot upon them: the like things shall not come, neither shall it be so.

    Jer. 3:1 They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, will he return unto her again? will not that land be greatly polluted? But thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith Jehovah.
    2 Lift up thine eyes unto the bare heights, and see; where hast thou not been lain with? By the ways hast thou sat for them, as an Arabian in the wilderness; and thou hast polluted the land with thy whoredoms and with thy wickedness.
    3 Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; yet thou hast a harlot's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.
    4 Wilt thou not from this time cry unto me, My Father, thou art the guide of my youth?
    5 Will he retain his anger for ever? will he keep it to the end? Behold, thou hast spoken and hast done evil things, and hast had thy way.
    6 Moreover Jehovah said unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.
    7 And I said after she had done all these things, She will return unto me; but she returned not: and her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
    8 And I saw, when, for this very cause that backsliding Israel had committed adultery , I had put her away and given her a bill of divorcement, yet treacherous Judah her sister feared not; but she also went and played the harlot.

    "Blood of the Saints"

    Babylon

    Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I wondered with a great wonder.

    Rev18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth.

    Jerusalem

    Matt 23: 30 and say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we should not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
    31 Wherefore ye witness to yourselves, that ye are sons of them that slew the prophets.
    32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
    33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
    34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
    35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
    36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
    37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!


    I Thess2:14 For ye, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus: for ye also suffered the same things of your own countrymen, even as they did of the Jews;
    15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out us, and pleased not God, and are contrary to all men;
    16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved; to fill up their sins always: but the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

    "Saints warned to Escape"

    Babylon

    Rev 18: 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues:
    5 for her sins have reached even unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

    23 and the light of a lamp shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the princes of the earth; for with thy sorcery were all the nations deceived

    Jerusalem

    Lk 21:20 But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand.
    21 Then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out ; and let not them that are in the country enter therein.
    22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

    "Adorned like a Priest"

    Babylon

    Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and decked with gold and precious stone and pearls , having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations, even the unclean things of her fornication,

    Rev 18:16 saying, Woe, woe, the great city, she that was arrayed in fine linen and purple and scarlet, and decked with gold and precious stone and pearl!

    Jerusalem

    Ex 28: 5 And they shall take the gold, and the blue, and the purple, and the scarlet, and the fine linen.
    6 And they shall make the ephod of gold, of blue, and purple, scarlet, and fine twined linen, the work of the skilful workman7 It shall have two shoulder-pieces joined to the two ends thereof, that it may be joined together.8 And the skilfully woven band, which is upon it, wherewith to gird it on, shall be like the work thereof and of the same piece; of gold, of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen..9 And thou shalt take two onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel:10 six of their names on the one stone, and the names of the six that remain on the other stone, according to their birth.11 With the work of an engraver in stone, like the engravings of a signet, shalt thou engrave the two stones, according to the names of the children of Israel: thou shalt make them to be inclosed in settings of gold.

    "Destroyed by Hailstones"

    Babylon

    Rev 16:
    21 And great hail, every stone about the weight of a talent, cometh down out of heaven upon men: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof is exceeding great.

    Jerusalem

    Josephus records in his book, "War of the Jews" Book 5 chapter 6:3 , that stones weighing 1 talent were catapulted into Jerusalem during the siege by the Roman armies.

    Punishment for a harlot were burning and stoning

    Old Covenant instructions:

    Lev21:9 And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the harlot, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.

    Deut 22:20 But if this thing be true, that the tokens of virginity were not found in the damsel;
    21 then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones , because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put away the evil from the midst of thee.


    Babylon

    Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest, and the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and shall burn her utterly with fire.

    Rev 18:21 And a strong angel took up a stone as it were a great millstone and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with a mighty fall shall Babylon, the great city, be cast down, and shall be found no more at all.

    Notice the celebration of the fall of Babylon:


    Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye saints, and ye apostles, and ye prophets; for God hath judged your judgment on her.

    No more persecution of the early church by the Jews. They had been judged just as Jesus said they would be.

    Matt 23: 34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
    35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
    36 Verily I say unto you , All these things shall come upon this generation .
     
  13. Ed Edwards

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    IMHO God can tell the difference
    between Babylon in what is now Iraq
    and Jerusalm in what is now Israel.

    Fcs25: //Only one church can claim that right.......The Holy Catholic Church!//

    Mioque: "You forgot the Eastern-Orthodox churches
    and the Oriental-Orthodox churches which are all just as old."

    Amen, Sister Mioque -- Preach it!
    Too many people are willing to believe Roman Catholic
    propaganda without even understanding what it means.
    Likewise the idea that there are 18,000 - 38,000 different
    protestant denominations -- raw, undigested RC propaganda.

    [ April 23, 2005, 10:10 PM: Message edited by: Ed Edwards ]
     
  14. robycop3

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    I live near Rome, Ohio, which is the name of a township in Lawrence Co., the southernmost county in Ohio. This area was named by the first Euro explorers who saw seven hills while boating down the Ohio River. (Mighta been Israel Putnam, but I don't know for sure.)

    Rome has been known as "the city of 7 hills from antiquity. While Jerusalem is a possibility, it's quite unlikely as God has chosen it as His earthly home in the future. There's already one quake prophesied for J when Jesus sets foot on the Mount of Olives.(A FAULT LINE has been found there!)

    I believe it's Rome...a seaport, which old Babylon was not, the home of such goat-ropers as Nero and Hadrian, who dispersed the Jews in 135-6 AD, and of such events as the Christian javelin-catching championships...not to mention the Vatican is plopped right smack dab in the middle of it. The Rome 500 Chariot Race of Ben-Hur fame was run at the Circus Maximus.

    Its end? Could be a nuke as suggested above; however I lean toward an earthquake or the eruption of a new volcano, as Rome was hit by earthquakes in the 13th & 14th Cs AD. And the famous Vesuvius is the remnant of a MUCH-LARGER ancient volcano called Somma. There's a fault line near Rome through which either an earthquake or a new volcano could occur. And Scripture says that IN ONE HOUR will her ruin come, while a nuke is somewhat quicker!

    Remember, the empire of the ANTICHRIST will be made from parts of the old Roman Empire, and, given Rome's earlier sins against God and Christians in general, I believe God will whup up a great big SPECIAL for her!
     
  15. Soulman

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    Quoted by av1611jim: Who says it is talking about killing christians exclusively?

    Revelation 17:6
    And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

    She also killed pagans that wouldn't convert.

    Quoted by av1611jim: Secondly who says it is a false "bride of Christ"?

    Any false religion can claim a part in the title of false bride. The false bride is any false religion professing to be the true church of Christ.

    I believe the whore to be the RCC. The Catholic Charasmatic movement seeks the inclusion of all her "seperated bretheren" (protestants). She not only wants fellowship but wants to assimilate them as there is no salvation outside the RCC. The RCC is in the forefront of ecumenicisim. Jerusalem is God's holy city. Rome claims itself as the holy sea. Notice that we call the RCC her.

    She is a whore as she will allow nearly all religions through her gate. Even Rome will drop some of it's orthodoxy to make it easier to join them. Anything goes doctrinally in the name of love and unity. Just like a whore.

    No other so called Christian religion can claim to be drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. The RCC has killed more christians in the name of God than any other. She fits the discription to a "T".

    Babylon of old couldn't claim that. I believe that Babylon of today is what it was of old. False religion. I know Saddam Hussein has attempted rebuilding the actual city. Mabey God will use it in some way. But I think modern Babylon to be the RCC.

    Many have said there are many Catholics that are saved. If this is true they must seek the truth to make them free. God WILL draw them out if they are His.

    Corinthians 6:17
    Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

    Gods' true children have no business rubbing shoulders with the emerging false church.

    Is this the one spoken of in the bible? I believe it is but even if it is not, it is still a false bride and a whore.

    Can I please have a doughnut now?? :D

    [ April 24, 2005, 12:44 AM: Message edited by: Soulman ]
     
  16. av1611jim

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    Soulman;
    I'm buying the donuts for everybody.
    Not becasue they agreed with me though.
    Grasshopper has demonstrated the preterist view.
    Roby, you, and others have demonstrated the old european view.
    But I'll pass 'em around anyway. This is at least a civil discussion. (unlike many other discussions here.)

    While grasshopper has shown how Jerusalem is that Babylon of Revelation, he makes the error of preterism and assumes that it all happened in 70 AD ignoring the fact that Jerusalem of old time didn't fall in one hour.

    But we can still all have coffee and donuts. I'll even bring along some tea and crumpets for our European friends. [​IMG]

    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
  17. robycop3

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    I don't believe the Jerusalem view for several reasons: First, Jesus will rule from there. Second, J is not nearly the great seaport of Israel that Ashdod and Tel Aviv are. Third, J was never part of "the beast". Fourth, I take Scripture at face value, knowing that when symbolism is used, it's clear that it IS symbolism and that almost all of it is explained. For example, the whore is called a city. I don't believe the angel would use symbolism to explain symbolism. He said TWO "is fallen"s. We know OLD Babylon fell long ago, and that it was NOT a seaport.

    And I utterly reject the Preterist view as a stretch and an addition to the meanings of Scripture.
     
  18. av1611jim

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    As far as assuming that "the great city" is a sea port, I believe that it is a stretch to say that.
    For the following reasons.
    First;
    Jerusalem is the ancient capital of the kingdom. So it is she which was made rich by the sea merchants and ships. Solomon ruled from Jerusalem yet had a great many ships.
    Second; Jerusalme doesn't have to be a harbor city at all becasue the text says;
    Re 18:19
    And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
    By this we see that they who had ships were made rich by her but not that she had the ships. They who had ships transported goods and sold them in Jerusalem. Nothing here about Jerusalem being a port city.
    Re 18:17
    For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
    Nothing here says Jerusalem is a port city either. Only that they who were sea merchants stood "afar off" witnessing the destruction.
    Also, concerning Jerusalem being part of the "beast"; God uses Babylonian kings to restore Israel's walls and gates. But according to Ezra and Nehemiah, not everyone returned from Babylon. It is obvious that when God mentions Babylon in that context, it doesn't mean the city exclusively but to mean the whole of the Babylonian city/state empire. So to say that "that great city" must mean just the locality of a town is not always so and I don't believe it is in Revelation either.
    NT prophecy must be understood as in addition to OT, never in place of it. As for old Babylon, it, too, was made rich by sea faring merchants. Though it was not a sea port, it was the captial of the city/state and as such the merchants brought much if not all of their trade into it.

    Yes the whore is called a city. Look to the OT and see if you can find any gentile cities God calls whores or adulteresses, k? Here let me help. Read Ezekiel 16. In that one chapter God calls Jerusalem a city, a kingdom, an adulteress, and a whore. He says she is worse than even Sodom. As such she is certainly part of "the beast".

    Jesus says of Jerusalem "How oft I would have gathered you unto me...but ye would not."
    Yes Jesus will rule there, but not until it is thoroughly purged. That happens in Revelation 18.

    Two "is fallens" are 70 AD and one yet future.

    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
  19. Grasshopper

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    The same word for "hour" is used also in I John:

    I John 2: 18Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

    Is this also a 60 minute period? Most futurist say this means the church age, which is hardly a 60 minute age.

    Exactly. I think those to whom Revelation was written understood the symbolism drawn from the OT.

    Jer 3:8 I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery.

    Jer 23: 14Also I have seen a horrible thing in the prophets of Jerusalem:
    They commit adultery and walk in lies;
    They also strengthen the hands of evildoers,
    So that no one turns back from his wickedness.
    All of them are like Sodom to Me,
    And her inhabitants like Gomorrah.

    Rev 11:8Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

    The great city is clearly Jerusalem.

    Rev 18:18When they see the smoke of her burning, they will exclaim, ‘Was there ever a city like this great city?’ 19They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out: “ ‘Woe! Woe, O great city,
    where all who had ships on the sea
    became rich through her wealth! In one hour she has been brought to ruin! 20Rejoice over her, O heaven!
    Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets! God has judged her for the way she treated you.’ ”

    Why would the apostles and prophets rejoice if it speaks of the Catholic Church or anything else? They rejoice because of what this city did to them.

    Rev 18:24In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints,
    and of all who have been killed on the earth.”

    Who killed the prophets and saints:

    Acts 7:52Was there ever a prophet your fathers did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him–

    I Thess. 2:14For you, brothers, became imitators of God's churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, 15who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out.

    Matt 23:37“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

    Who is blamed for the shedding all the righteous blood on the earth?

    Matt 23:35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

    Old Jerusalem represented the Old Covenant while the New Jerusalem(church) represents the New Covenant.
     
  20. av1611jim

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    I wouldn't disagree with your last post grasshopper.
    I only disagree with your concluding the preterist view is correct.
    What you have posted happens to fit my view as well, yet I come to a futurist view.

    How 'bout that?

    In HIS service;
    Jim
     

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