Who is this woman and child?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Sopranette, Dec 30, 2007.

  1. Sopranette

    Sopranette
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    Rev12:1
    And there appeared a great wonder in Heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
    Rev 12:5
    And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
    Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and three score days.

    Is it Mary and Jesus, Jerusalem and Jesus? Does time repeat itself in heaven? Why is the Revelation so cryptic?


    love,

    Sopranette
     
    #1 Sopranette, Dec 30, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 30, 2007
  2. Ulsterman

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    The woman is Israel. The child is Jesus.
     
  3. LeBuick

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    You sure it's not the Church or remnant portion of Israel?
     
  4. Sopranette

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    So why will she be taken take of for 1260 years? Why must she be fed?

    love,

    Sopranette
     
  5. EdSutton

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    I don't think the text says anything about 1260 years. I believe you miscalculated by about 1256 1/2 years, even though I have absolutely less than no idea what you mean by "be taken take". :)

    Ed
     
  6. Brother Bob

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    Amen to that LeBuick; :thumbs:

    and its 1000, 200 and 3 score days = almost 3 1/2 years.
     
    #6 Brother Bob, Dec 30, 2007
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  7. EdSutton

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    The characteristics ascribed to the woman and the man child appear to refer to Israel and the Lord Jesus Christ. Remember Joseph's dream and the interpretation before his brothers, and the reference to 'ruling the nations with a rod of iron', this characteristic being one ascribed to Jesus in Rev. 19:15.

    Ed
     
  8. Brother Bob

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    It was my sermon for Christmas Day this year.

    BBob,
     
  9. Sopranette

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    It says "one thousand two hundred and three score days" not years. :p But why would a nation need to be taken CARE of for this specific amount of time? Who are the great red dragon's seven heads and ten horns, casting 1/3 of the stars to earth? How about:

    Rev 12:16
    And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
    And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    This takes place after the dragon has battled it out with Michael and his angels, and lost, and is cast down to earth. So does time repeat itself in heaven, or are these events yet to come, or will it come full circle?

    love,

    Sopranette
     
  10. Brother Bob

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    We are the remnant of her seed and we are at war with the devil and sin, and the dragon represents how they tried to kill the babe as soon as it were born and Rachel was crying for her children were not. A decree went out:

    Mat 2:18In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping [for] her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.

    Mat 2:16¶Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.

    Mat 2:19¶But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,

    Mat 2:20Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life.

    BBob,
     
    #10 Brother Bob, Dec 30, 2007
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  11. Aaron

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    I think John Gill got it right:

    http://www.freegrace.net/gill/

    Soprannette, might I suggest you invest in a good commentary set? Matthew Henry is almost universally accepted and is the most affordable. Though it's accessible online, it's nice to have it in book form. It's sometimes faster that way.
     
  12. Brother Bob

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    How can Gill be right when he says the child seems to be Christ, then says it is not Christ for real, but the war was fought and they overcome the accuser by the blood of the Lamb, says it is Jesus. No, Gill has a lot of writing and runs all the way to the Pagans to the end times he said it might be, but he was not sure. He says when Jesus was born seems to be what is in Rev. 12, but that is not it. He says the dragon seems to be the King who sought the Lord's life as soon as He was born, but that is not it. He never puts it at a specific time seems to me, even though he acknowledges that the woman seems to represent the church and the son born seems to represent Christ, but is not. If I understand him with a quick read.

    I think when they overcome by the blood of the Lamb gives the time of when the war was without guessing for it says, now has "salvation and strength come" was of course when Jesus died on the cross. He won the war by His blood, and He won it for us, for it is by His blood we obtain the victory.


    http://books.google.com/books?id=LV...ts=73Ktd4oxjJ&sig=Bexx_IZakPOBgXbbV0EQ9gioTSk

    Just a small portion of John Wesley on Rev.12:1 (I think John Wesley got it right, and me of course...:)

    CHAPTER XII. 40í

    a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her
    3 delivered. And another sign was seen in heaven ; and
    behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten 2 'feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. And being with child she crieth, travailing in birth and pained to be
    4 horns, and seven diadems on his heads. And his tail
    draweth the third part of the stars of heaven, and casteth
    them to the earth. And the dragon stood ЪеГоге the
    woman who was ready to be delivered, that when she had
    5 brought forth, he might devour the child. And she
    V. a. And being with child, she crieth, travailing in birth—The very pain,
    without any outward opposition, would constrain a woman in travail to cry
    out. These crie«, throes, and pains to be delivered, were the painful longings,
    the sighs and prayers of the saints for the coming of the kingdom of God.
    The woman groaned and'travailed in spirit, that Christ might. appear, as the
    Shepherd and King of all nations. heavenly spectators reprenentcd in the vision. A sign means something that lias an uncommon appearance, and from which we infer, that some unusual thing will follow. A woman—The emblem of the church of Christ, as she is originally of Israel,

    BBob,

    bedtime :sleeping_2: More later!
     
    #12 Brother Bob, Dec 30, 2007
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  13. Magnetic Poles

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    The Revelation has so much symbolism and imagery that it could be interpreted to be many different things. The same book has resulted in many views and eschatological constructs.
     
  14. Linda64

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    :thumbs:Amen Bro!
     
  15. Ulsterman

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    The woman is portrayed as a "great wonder". In the Greek this phrase intimates a "great or mega symbol". A symbol is never the object it symbolises, so it cannot be a lieteral woman, thererfore we can rule out Mary. Besides, nothing, other than giving birth to the Saviour bears any further resemblance to Mary's life.

    So this leaves us with one of two possibilities., either it is the church or Israel. Of course those who wish to apply replacement theology to it will view it as the church. But if we allow the Scriptures to interpret themselves we find an explanation for the symbols given:

    "And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth? And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying." (Genesis 37:9-11)

    The sun and moon portray Jacob & Rachel respectively, and the twelve stars his twelve sons. In other words it represents the historic family of Israel. Revelation constantly makes reference to Israel with the term twelve tribes (Rev 7:5-8 & 21:12). John's framework of reference in this book is particularly Jewish as it is largely dealing with the time of Jacob's trouble. (Rev 7:5-8; 11:19; 14:1ff etc). Israel is portrayed as a woman in travail right throughout the Old Testament (Isa 13:8; 21:3; 26:17018; Jer 4:31; 13:21; Hos 13:13; Mic 4:10 etc).

    So what of the man child? Well, "salvation is of the Jews", Christ came out of Israel, and the preservation of the nation was always with a view to preserving the Messianic line.

    What then of the great red dragon? Rev 20:2 tells exactly who the dragon is... "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years."

    Satan's hostility toward Israel is well documented, and this continues through the time of Jacob's Trouble, also known as the time of Great Tribulation. Why 1260 days, because that represents 3.5 years, marking the moment in the middle of the Tribulation period when Antichrist breaks his covenant with Israel and the nation's persecution begins in earnest.

    Am I sure it's not the church? Absolutely.
     
  16. Ulsterman

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    That's true, but it doesn't mean every interpretation is valid or true, nor does it mean we should throw our hands up in the air and make no effort to understand what John has written. After all, this book holds special blessing for those who will take the time to both read it and understand it.
     
  17. Sopranette

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    Thank you Aaron, but I prefer having several different viewpoints, then piece it all together from there. I just get a clearer picture that way. What I would like to find is an accurate timeline, with the symbolism explained, of Revelation. So far, I haven't found one, although I was able to piece together from several a sort of very general time frame or sequence of events.

    love,

    Sopranette
     
  18. Brother Bob

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    What you and others call a replacement theory I call it "added to". The Gentiles did not replace Israel, but rather branches were broken off of Israel so that the Gentile nation could be added to the original Olive Tree and I can agree with your summary of Israel being the woman but I call it the church under the Law as spoken of in Acts:

    Act 7:38This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

    Which I believe to be the woman, of course the "man child" was Jesus Christ, who was to rule all nations with a rod of Iron.

    BBob,
     
  19. Joshua Rhodes

    Joshua Rhodes
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    EDIT: Brother Bob was obviously quicker on the draw than I was. Alot of this info is the same as what He just posted. Sorry.

    In Rev. 12:1-6 a great cosmic story begins. A woman appears, clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and a crown of 12 stars on her head. She is also pregnant, and is crying out in labor pains as the time of her delivery draws near. To Roman Catholics, she's the Virgin Mary, "Queen of Heaven." Obviously, there's a historical tie to Mary, the mother of Jesus, but the symbolic nature of this vision of John suggests a deeper meaning. Doesn't the description of her splendor arise out of Joseph's dream Genesis 37:1-9. where the "sun, the moon, and 11 stars" bow down to him? In ancient Jewish literature, 12 stars often represented the 12 tribes of Israel and the OT also contains imagery of Israel as the bride of Yahweh. This woman seems to represent the faithful people of God, which stands in stark contrast to the "notorious prostitute" of chapter 17. Her Son, whom the great dragon of the story situates himself to devour, is the promised Messiah of Israel.

    If the woman is the protagonist of this story, and the dragon is the antagonist, then the woman's Son is the hero. He is going to shepherd all nations with an iron scepter, a reference to Psalm 2 and the judgment of the messianic king of Israel. Before the dragon can devour Him, the Son is caught up to God and to His throne.
     
    #19 Joshua Rhodes, Dec 31, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2007
  20. Brother Bob

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    Seems to be what most of us say it is, including John Wesley. Very good.....

    BBob,
     

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