Who limits the attonement?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Dale-c, Jan 3, 2008.

  1. Dale-c

    Dale-c
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    I heard and interesting radio program the other day on limited attonment.
    They pointed out the fact that Calvinists and free willers alike believe in limited attonement.
    It is just that arminians or whatever a person wants to be called, believe the attonement is limited by man.

    Calvinists believe that the attonement is limited by God.

    Only universalists believe in a truly unlimited attonement.
     
  2. Rippon

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    All true Christians have to agree that only the elect -- those whose names are inscribed in the Lamb's Book of Life are redeemed . They are the only ones for which the atonement procured salvation . All the rest -- the reprobate , are under the eternal sentence of the second death . Their sins were certainly not atoned for . Atoned is to make complete satisfaction for -- these folks have been ( or shall ) be at-one-ment with God --reconciled . No one bound for everlasting misery ( non-elect ) has their sins atoned for .
     
  3. Brother Bob

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    Would this be the "atonement"???

    1Ti 2:6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

    BBob,
     
  4. Allan

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  5. Dr. L.T. Ketchum

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    Have you ever studied the word Atonement and the word it is translated from in the OT?

    Do you understand that a Greek equivalent of that word is never used in the NT of Christ's death, burial & resurrection?

    The NT word is propitiation and propitiation is universal (I John 2:2), but benefiting only those that believe.

    See the following studies from Romans:
    http://www.disciplemakerministries.org/PDF Files/Romans/Outline of the Doctrine of Salvation.pdf
    http://www.disciplemakerministries.org/PDF Files/Romans/Chart Propitiation-Justification.pdf
    http://www.disciplemakerministries.org/PDF Files/Romans/Romans 27.pdf
    http://www.disciplemakerministries.org/PDF Files/Romans/Romans 28.pdf
    http://www.disciplemakerministries.org/PDF Files/Romans/Romans 46.pdf

    All of these studies are important to understanding this issue, but especially read the last two.

    Do you understand that Christ's universal proptiation of God is the adjudication of God's universal condemnation of mankind "in Adam" due to the sin of mankind's original Federal Head (Adam; Rom. 5:12) in order to establish a new Federal Head "in Christ"?
     
  6. Brother Bob

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    Amen................ The atonement for all is made to the Father, but you must believe before the Father applies it to your sins.

    BBob,
     
    #6 Brother Bob, Jan 4, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 4, 2008
  7. Dale-c

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    This is what I mean. Calvinists that I know either believe that the attonement was limited by God, or the application was limited by God.
    Others, such as you believe that the application is limited by man's unbelief.

    Is that an accurate representation of what you believe?
     
  8. skypair

    skypair
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    Dr LT,

    I'm "tasting" a little Calvinism in those "stews" you offered. What are the implications regarding the infants in that last offering (re: all born with sin guilt in Adam)?

    And that term "sovereign grace." Sounds like the author is "molly coddling" the Calvies by using their own vocabulary to make other points.

    And "death." Men are born "alive" (re: Rom 7:9) and when they sin (which ALL do), their soul dies -- is separated from God, yea, flees from/avoids God as Adam did. "The SOUL that sinneth, it shall surely die." -- and that IMMEDIATELY. Ezek 18:20 Bbut no man is guilty of his parents and ancestor's sin, also Ezek 18:20.

    Perhaps you can explain better that the author(?)

    Anyway, that atonement is for ALL is revealed in that ALL will be resurrected to LIFE from death -- either raptured pretrib, resurrected into the MK postrib, or resurrected to the GWT postMK. EVERYone will receive a body because Jesus died for every sin but one -- rejecting Him.
    skypair
     
    #8 skypair, Jan 4, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 4, 2008
  9. Brother Bob

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    Yes, God did not give it out universal, but to those who believe. :thumbs:
     
  10. Dr. L.T. Ketchum

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    Did you read the posts I linked to? They are from MY comentary on Romans. If you did, you would certainly know I am not a Calvinist. Calvinists use Bible terminology. They impose suppositions on Bible texts (eisegesis) that result in false definitions of Bible terminology.

    See the following studies from Romans:
    http://www.disciplemakerministries.o...0Salvation.pdf
    http://www.disciplemakerministries.o...tification.pdf
    http://www.disciplemakerministries.o...omans%2027.pdf
    http://www.disciplemakerministries.o...omans%2028.pdf
    http://www.disciplemakerministries.o...omans%2046.pdf

    God's grace is "Sovereign Grace" and if you read the commentary on Romans 5:18-21, you will see why God's grace is "Sovereign Grace."

    http://www.disciplemakerministries.org/PDF Files/Romans/Romans 46.pdf

    All mankind is condemned in Adam (their progenitor and Federal Head). This is the subject matter of the first three chapters of Romans. We need a new primogenitor and Federal Head and we need a way of escape from the family of Adam. Christ provides both of these. He is both the sacrifice for sin propitiating God and the "door" into "the regeneration" provided by God's sovereign grace and by which a believer enters "through faith" (Ephesians 2:8-9).

    http://www.disciplemakerministries.org/Pages/Romans Commentary.htm
    (See chapters 13-26 in this commentary).

    You use a term invented by Covenant Theology (Atonement). It is a word invented and defined that lacks any real connection to translation of the Hebrew word Kaphar. To quote from my commentary:
    "This is the reason why I object to the use of the word Atonement to refer to the Cross-work of Christ and the doctrine of salvation. Atonement is a Covenant Theological interpretation (not a translation) of the Hebrew word kaphar (kaw-far’), which literally means to cover with pitch. Under the Old Covenant, the believer’s sins were covered over (the lid of the Ark of the Covenant was called the Kapharith). Covenant Theologians, failing to see a dispensational transition from Law to grace, adapted the continual sacrifices of Israel to the Church Age. Under this application, God was only appeased (this was the pagan understanding of satisfying the anger or wrath of the gods). That is how Covenant Theologians view the Old Covenant sacrifices (totally in error).

    Upon the completion of the work of redemption through the Cross-work of Jesus Christ, sins were no longer covered over. God was propitiated. Christ bore the death sentence that was upon every sin ever committed bymankind, from Adam to the last man on earth. Because God was propitiated, His righteousness (justice) was satisfied and the repentant sinner was completely removed from the condemnation of his sins through the Blood of Jesus Christ “once” and for all.

    “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit” (I Peter 3:18).

    “1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world” (I John 2:1-2)."
     
  11. Jarthur001

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    GOD


    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx​

    Where does the power found in the atonement take place?

    I feel the Bible teaches it was finished at the cross.


    Others feel man must sign up for the benefit in order for the atonement to be applied to them. In this case, it seems to me man limits it based on what he does. If he believes, the atonement has power over his sins. If man does not believe, the atonement has no power that will take away his sin. It is man that controls the outcome not God.
     
    #11 Jarthur001, Jan 4, 2008
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  12. webdog

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    In regards to NT atonement...very interesting. Let me digest that one for a while...
     
  13. reformedbeliever

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    If Christ's death propitiated every sin ever committed by mankind, from Adam to the last man on earth...... all men inclusively......... then why do you say His righteousness (justice) was satisfied, but then you say "and the repentant sinner was completely removed from the condemnation of his sins through the Blood of Jesus Christ “once” and for all." Why do you claim this is only the repentant sinner? Why not all men inclusively, since you say His death propitiated all men inclusively?
     
  14. Dr. L.T. Ketchum

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    Men are not propitiated. God is propitiated (His wrath upon sin is satisfied in the substitute). God has opened the prison door from His condemnation "in Adam" and has opened a door into the New Genesis "in Christ" (the "last Adam"). God's propitiation merely opens the door into "the regeneration." The believer must "obey the gospel" to enter "the regeneration" through the door (the New Federal Head of the New Genesis "in Christ;" i.e. Jesus). God's grace provides what sinners receive through God's ordained means (faith). The provision is universal (I john 2;2, "whosoever shall call," Romans 10:13). The benefits are only to those who "obey the gospel" (Rom. 10:1-11).
     
  15. reformedbeliever

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    Yes, His death propitiated God, agreed. What I was saying is that you claim this propitiation was universal, but then turned around as said "Because God was propitiated, His righteousness (justice) was satisfied and the repentant sinner was completely removed from the condemnation of his sins through the Blood of Jesus Christ “once” and for all."

    Why only the "repentant sinner?".... if this was a propitiation for all men inclusively?
    I do believe His propitiation was only for the elect... ( the repentant sinner ) but was in no way propitiation for all men inclusively.
     
  16. webdog

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    Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that expiation is only for the elect?
     
  17. reformedbeliever

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    No web. Christs death propitiated God for those who will believe. Ketchum says His death propitiated God for all men inclusively.
     
  18. Dr. L.T. Ketchum

    Dr. L.T. Ketchum
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    Why would you say this when Scripture clearly says otherwise.

    "24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith" (Romans 3:24-27).

    “1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world” (I John 2:2).


     
  19. skypair

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    yes, that is where my comments came from (the last 2 that you recommemded anyway).

    So we are all born with sin guilt?

    Yes.

    skypair
     
  20. Dr. L.T. Ketchum

    Dr. L.T. Ketchum
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    We are all born "dead in trespasses and sin" (Eph. 2:1).

    Every descendant of Adam is part of the curse except the Promised "Seed" of Gen 3:15. The Promised "Seed" (the virgin born "Seed" of the woman; i.e. Christ) will crush Satan's Federal Headship stolen from Adam by the deception of Eve (Adam willfully sinned relinquishing "dominion"). Satan's dominion is death (I Cor. 15:51-57). The dominion of death comes through the "seed" of Adam (seminally; Rom.5:12) in the Sin Nature and passes "upon all men."

    See the study below on Romans 5:12-17:
    http://www.disciplemakerministries.org/PDF Files/Romans/Romans 44.pdf
     

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