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Discussion in 'History Forum' started by Baptistas, Jul 2, 2004.
Who made the Church before occurrence of the first churches baptists in 1609?
Jesus commissioned the Church...
Matt. 16:18 "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
And He sustains it by His presence...
Mt.28.18-20 18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I AM WITH YOU ALWAY, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
I think Baptista's real question was: "Where was the authentic church before the advent of the General Baptists?"
Throughout history there are records of small groups who held to the same basic beliefs and practices of the "modern" (1600 on) Baptists.
Believers baptism by immersion is one of those unifying beliefs.
While we would not agree with everything taught or done by such groups, they were the forerunners of the modern "Baptists".
I agree with your post!
Dr. Bob - Agreed; also these groups were not part of the "established" or "state" religion, practiced congregational self-government under Christ, absolute authority of Scripture (even tho we might not agree with some of their interpretations, as folks on the board don't always agree - seems almost Baptistic!) We don't have to trace a succession to know that these Spirit-given characteristics were there, just as we don't have to trace back to Adam if we have his characteristics. This is one of my areas of special interest.
I've been off for a while - revivals, computer problems, etc. - glad to be back "on board."
Best in Him - Charles - Rom. 8:28
Who it was? Where about them is written? In what documents? Whether there are in general items of information on the people, which would trust earlier how now trust baptist?
The predecessors baptists were heretics?
About, yes! It - is indisputable!
But... All the same?
Finding true Christians in the dark centuries between the Constantinian Settlement of the 4th century and the Reformation is more difficult than tracing unregistered Baptist congregations in Stalinist Russia, Baptistas. Undoubtedly they existed; strict Landmarkers (with whom I must say I disagree) will be able to give you precise definitions and names of groups such as the Novatians, Paulicians, Waldenses, Bogomils, Cathari/ Albigenses, Hussites, Anabaptists etc. More realistically, I think that only the Waldenses, Hussites and (Trinitarian, non-Munster) Anabaptists qualify, plus many more who existed on the quiet within the Catholic and Orthodox Churches in those centuries.
Yours in Christ
Cathari/Albigenses were ascetic (Basically, gnostic), and definitely not "orthodox". What happens, is those trying to trace their group back take any "little, persecuted" group opposed to the big RCC Church as being the "true Church", but not all were, just like not all are today.
Even the Waldensians were basically Catholics who simply opposed the further corruptions Rome was continuing to add. They had priests, monks, nuns, etc. So they too were not "Baptist". (nor any of the other groups that trace themselves like this: Church of Christ, JW, Armstrong, sabbatarian; and it was actually an SDA book on them which admitted these things!)
I have heard of "families" of Christians around Israel who go all the way back. That would seem more like what we are looking for; but I wonder if they are simply the local Catholic/Orthodox that were being referred to.
However, we have the documentary certificates on existence of these churches in Russia. And about ancestors baptists it to tell difficultly.
Novatians, Paulicians, Waldenses, Bogomils, Cathari/ Albigenses - Were arians...
Church history seems to be a collection of splinter groups that might look like candidates on the surface but, with careful examination, tend to turn out to ascribe things that would cause most modern Baptists (or protestants for that matter) to refuse joining. I don't know that I've ever found one organized group that could totally fit all our "tests of orthodoxy" - after all, we can't even seem to agree on each other today
Seems the Jews are being left out of church history again.