Who Populates the Millennial Kingdom?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Darrell C, Oct 6, 2015.

  1. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    The purpose of this thread is to discuss the Rapture from a Pre-Millennial perspective. Participants of either Pre, Mid, or Post-Trib view are encouraged to join in, but, all participants are asked that only Scripture be the reference source for the Basis of their belief. No commentaries, no teachers, no opinions...only Scripture references.

    A-Millennial and Preterist brethren are welcome to join in as well, but a rejection of a Millennial Kingdom makes your participation moot. You are not going to be able to discuss who populates the Millennial Kingdom if you do not believe thee is going to be one. If you want to debate the veracity of one of the above views, well...go start a thread of your own, and appropriately title it.

    ;)

    I will start this out by saying that the Pre-Tribulation view is the only view which conforms to all of Prophecy. The next most reasonable view is the Mid-Trib view. Lastly, we have the Post-Trib view which seems to be the most popular today.

    We see in Revelation...

    Revelation 20:7-9

    King James Version (KJV)

    7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

    8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

    9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


    ...that physical descendants rebel against God at the end of the Millennial Kingdom, which prompts the question of the OP. If all believers are glorified at the end of the Tribulation...

    ...who populates the Millennial Kingdom, and where do these offspring come from?


    God bless.
     
  2. DHK

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    Rev.19:19-21 describes the final battle at the end of the Tribulation. But not all on the earth will be killed.
    Following this, at the beginning of the Kingdom, will be the Judgment of the nations (Mat.25:31-46). The word "nations" is otherwise translated "gentiles," as the Lord has already come for the Jews or Israel. The division between sheep and goats will be according to who was friendly to the Jews and who was not.

    Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
    It appears that "brethren" refers to the physical brethren of Jesus, the nation of Israel, those who he had just come to save.
    I like what Walvoord's commentary says here (The Bible Knowledge Commentary)
    The remaining Gentiles (goats) are all unbelievers and will end up where all at the Great White Throne Judgement end up.
     
  3. Darrell C

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    And this is a point I would agree with, though we do not need Walvoord to verify that.

    Some hold to the view that the tribulation will be exclusive to the Middle East because only Nations surrounding that country are named, which is how they get around the problem of who populates the Millennial Kingdom if the Church is raptured at the end of the Tribulation.

    But you have hit the nail on the head: those who survive and arrive at the Sheep and Goat Judgment are all destroyed physically, and go to Hades to await the resurrection of the dead at the end of the Millennial Kingdom.

    It will be required that everyone that enters into the Millennial Kingdom be born again. Nothing that offends will enter into that Kingdom.


    Matthew 13:40-42

    King James Version (KJV)

    40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

    41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

    42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.



    Matthew 13:46-48

    King James Version (KJV)

    46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

    47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

    48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.



    Matthew 24:30-32

    King James Version (KJV)

    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



    Matthew 25:31-33

    King James Version (KJV)

    31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

    32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

    33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.



    We can certainly see application to the end of the Millennial Kingdom as well in some of these, but, the end of the Tribulation fits the context which is specific to Christ's Return. Here we see that nothing which offends will enter into that Kingdom. All unbelievers will be destroyed by the time the Millennial Kingdom is established.

    Thus the descendants of believers will rebel against God and join forces with Satan.

    We are given a glimpse of an unbeliever in that Kingdom here:


    Zechariah 13

    King James Version (KJV)

    1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

    2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.

    3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the Lord: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.



    Those who rebel against God will not do so openly as they do today.


    God bless.
     
  4. agedman

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    I have to go, or I would give Scriptures, but basically, those that enter the millennium are two.
    The first are all those who did make it through the tribulation and destruction of over a third of the whole world. There are no mountains and no islands, no valleys...

    Second group are the returning saints in the glorified body who will instruct the folks left in the world of that which pertains to the King of Kings, and all Israel who yet remain in their physical state but do believe (they look upon Him ...)

    The great rebellion at the end of the Millennium is "non-violent" for God stops time before the first rebellious blow comes. Just the threat of evil is enough for the Father to step in - for there is no rebellion that will not be met with sudden and sever "casting out" of the the Kingdom of God in Heaven or Earth.
     
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  5. Darrell C

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    Agreed. Only those born again will stand as Sheep in the Judgment that follows the end of the Tribulation.

    It is interesting to note, by the way, that Daniel 12 gives us a 75 day period which follows the 3 1/2 year period marked by the Abomination which makes desolate. It is my belief this is the period where the nations are gathered (by Angels) for that Judgment. It allows a 75 day period at the end of the Millennial Kingdom for Satan to work his wiles, and gather the unbelievers for the destruction they will suffer at that time.


    While we might not be overly dogmatic on the point, because it is not a good idea to base doctrine on silence from Scripture (though it can be readily implied at times), it would seem that only Tribulation Martyrs are glorified at that time. That is, those who are born again during the Tribulation and die for their faith (because they do not take the mark of the beast).

    This would seem, in my view, a more reasonable understanding of what takes place. Because, as the OP suggests, if the Church is glorified at this time, and based on the teaching of Paul that the Rapture of the Church includes both those who have died as well as "we who remain" (meaning everyone in the Body), then we have no-one to repopulate the earth and provide those descendants which rebel against God and are destroyed at the end of the Millennial Kingdom.

    This will begin the Eternal State. That is the culmination of God's Redemptive Plan, and His desire to create a People unto Himself. This same Plan has been the same throughout Scripture, simply revealed in stages. There will be One Shepherd, and One Fold...in that day.


    God bless.
     
  6. agedman

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    Darrel,
    I consider Rev. 19 as good a place as any in Scriptures to show that the glorification of the believers as the bride takes place before the Millennium and the return of the Kink of Kings includes those same believers.

    According to this passage, it seems that all who received the mark will be killed. Therefore, there are only two groups entering the Millennium. The one is those few who survive and who have not taken the mark, and the returning saints.
     
  7. Darrell C

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    Many do (and I am assuming you meant Revelation 20), however, this is not feasible due to the fact that if this is the Rapture...who populates the Kingdom? Unless we think glorified saints will be producing offspring, then we are forced to see the offspring at the end of the Millennial Kingdom as offspring of unbelievers. And I take the view that only those born again will enter into that Kingdom.

    The Church is raised, both dead and those alive, as a singular entity in Paul's teaching.

    In the First Resurrection, though, we see only Tribulation Martyrs raised to live again (and again glorification is likely in view due to their reigning with Christ for the thousand years, though we know duration of life is extended in that Age, and it could be argued that this is why these resurrected saints live so long)...

    Revelation 20

    King James Version (KJV)

    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.



    I would suggest that this limits those raised here to those who die in the Tribulation. While some who spiritualize the Mark of the Beast as simply describing evil actions of thought and deed, I see this as specific to the very events being described in the Tribulation. The Beast is specific to this period, and that he demand worship, and kill those who do not, but retain loyalty to Christ even unto death...just makes more sense, and fits the prophetic timeline better.

    There is nothing here to indicate that the living saints are raised as Paul teaches will occur in the Rapture of the Church:


    1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

    King James Version (KJV)

    13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



    In the Rapture described here the Church is in her entirety resurrected.

    That is not the case in the First Resurrection.

    And the point of the OP makes that distinction a central point to who will populate the Millennial Kingdom.

    Only Tribulation Martyrs are indicated as being resurrected, and we can see in Matthew 25 that the gathering of the nations, where the Sheep (believers) and the Goats (unbelievers) are separated (one for destruction, one to enter into the Kingdom), that believers who live through the Tribulation enter into that Kingdom as living, physical believers.

    They are the ones who not only populate the Kingdom, but they repopulate the world.

    Those who rebel against God at the end of the Millennial Kingdom...


    Revelation 20:7-10

    King James Version (KJV)

    7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

    8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

    9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

    10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.



    ...will be the offspring of the living, physical believers that enter into that Kingdom.


    So how do we reconcile that with Paul's teaching that both the living and the dead in Christ are resurrected in glorified form at the same time? The believers that suvive the Tribulation would be considered those "that remain."

    That is the singular weakness of the Post-Tribulation view that dismantles the entire position.

    Only one group enters into that Kingdom physically, and that will be the Sheep. The resurrected Tribulation Martyrs can be considered a second group, but, truly they are of the same group...believers. The difference between them being one group is resurrected, one is not. And only from the Sheep can we assume offspring. While Scripture doesn't say a lot about the disposition of glorified saints in regards to marriage (the only possible vehicle to produce offspring in keeping with the will of God), what is said denies marriage as a function for those resurrected. This denies the possibility of offspring as well.

    Only those who survive physically the Tribulation can reasonably be considered to provide the rebellious offspring that follows Satan to destruction.

    God bless.
     
  8. agedman

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    Darrell, somewhere we cross communicated. I was using these verses (followed by a short explanation).

    Rev 19: 7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.” 8 It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
    9 Then he *said to me, “Write, ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.’” And he *said to me, “These are true words of God.”
    These verses are important, because they show the saints with Christ before the millennium starts. The context is John's response to the three Hallelujah's resulting from the fall of Babylon which takes place in chapter 18.

    Starting in Rev 19: 11 is the second coming of Christ.

    11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”​

    Therefore, when that "supper of God" is finished (17 and 18) the enemy of believers is chained, then the Millennium begins.

    It is marvelous to see the returning saints be given authority and seats in which to judge - but who will they judge?

    Rev 20: 4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.​

    The judgment is for the few remaining humans who did not take the mark and that survive the Tribulation and those that are born during the Millennium.

    (I have heard of some who separate the first part of the verse "judgment was given to them" from "And I saw the souls..." and make much about the returning saints judge the tribulation believers, but I don't have room in my heart for such a scheme; rather, I see that all saints ("and they came to life and reigned" both the pre and tribulation believers) reigning with Christ for a thousand years.

    What is unfortunate is apparently the context would suggest that the tribulation saints are not part of the marriage supper of the lamb.
     
  9. Aaron

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    First vet at a veterinary medicine conference: We will call the dog's tail a leg, and discuss various methods of treating injuries thereto.

    Secong vet: But it's tail is not a leg. What can come of this discussion but an endless stream of nonsense?

    First vet: It's a leg, and that is the premise from which we will proceed.

    Third vet: Dogs have five legs.
     
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  10. agedman

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    Aaron,

    How can one discuss the question of OP if they do not even believe in a second coming followed by Millennium as laid out in Rev. 19 - 20?
     
  11. Darrell C

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    Then the Bible Vet steps up and tells them they are at the wrong conference.

    ;)

    Perhaps if you actually addressed the issues instead of disrupting them you might benefit from the discussion. The suggestion that those who embrace the Millennial Kingdom is like unto a vet that misidentifies, and the A-millennial seeing the discussion as pointless is fantasy realm dreaming.

    You cannot change a thousand years to a long time, you cannot remove the Prophecy of Scripture, and you cannot make your view fit into Scripture.

    So you would be all three of the vets in your analogy.

    And if you don't want to discuss it and think it is pointless...

    ...why even make a comment?

    But, be glad to see you present a Scriptural presentation supporting either a-mil or preterist views.


    God bless.
     
  12. Aaron

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    You mean as laid out by variations of Darbyism. Amillennialists do believe in the millennium of Rev. 20, just as they do every word of the Scripture. Because I believe the righteous take refuge in the shadow of God's wings does not mean that I believe God has feathery appendages.
     
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  13. Darrell C

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    Agreed. This is why it is important to be specific as to what Scripture you refer to. You said Revelation 19, so I assumed you had the resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs in mind.

    You bring up a good point of discussion, though, because exactly what the "Marriage Supper of the Lamb is" is a point which should be threshed out.

    I would agree, this does indicate that at this point the Bride is ready for the Marriage Supper.

    But, we see the Tribulation Martyrs only...resurrected at this time. We can safely say that this is the end of the Tribulation. In view we can say is the Church, and the Tribulation Martyrs, Those are the only two groups we can identify. And only the Tribulation Martyrs are said to be resurrected.

    When they are resurrected we can say that both the Church, and those resurrected at this time are glorified (and again glorification is implied, I think, for the Tribulation Martyrs.

    Whereas I would narrow that down to a declaration of the Impending Marriage Supper which is followed by Saints coming from Heaven with Christ (which implies heavily that the Rapture of the Church has already taken place), which itself is followed by the destruction of those that are enemies of God (destroyed by the Word of Christ).

    After that takes place, then we see the Tribulation Martyrs raised. Not much room in there to impose the Rapture of the Church.

    And again, we see the question of the OP raised: if we have the Church returning with Christ (if they are the ones with Him in ch.19) and are at this time resurrected...who populates the Millennial Kingdom?

    There has to be a physical Body in order to produce the offspring that rebels at the end of the Millennial Kingdom.


    Agreed.

    Have to stop there for clarification of what you believe.

    This...

    Revelation 19:17-21

    King James Version (KJV)

    17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

    18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

    19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

    20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

    21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.



    ...is not the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

    It is the Supper of the Great God, which can be seen in the text to have the fowls that fly in heaven called to feast on the carcasses of the destroyed unbelievers.

    This same event is described in Old Testament Prophecy as well (and if you don't mind I am going to use a 5font on these):


    Ezekiel 39

    King James Version (KJV)

    1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

    2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:

    3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.

    4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.

    5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God.



    Another place we see this is sometimes confused as a Rapture passage:


    Luke 17

    King James Version (KJV)

    24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

    26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.


    27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

    28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

    29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

    30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.



    Okay, just going to pause there and point out that in view is Christ's Return, which we see in Revelation 19 followed by the Supper of the Great God.

    The point in this passage highlights judgment and death for those judged.

    Now let's see how this ends:


    Luke 17:34-37

    King James Version (KJV)

    34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

    35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.



    It could be argued which is in view, the taken or left. But, I think it makes the most sense in light of all we have to consider to see that those taken are those that are judged and die.

    Consider that it will be as it was in the day of Noah and Lot.

    Who was taken, and who was left?

    Now, finish that thought with the Sheep and Goat Judgment that takes place in Matthew 25: who is taken in judgment, and who is left?

    Continued...
     
  14. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    It is not an unreasonable view, for we see that the Tribulation Martyrs reign with Christ for a thousand years.

    I would say there can be more added to that, as we see 24 thrones in Heaven itself (translated "seats" but the same word used to refer to the Throne of God).


    The bottom line would be that the Saints prior to the Cross, those saved during this Age, and those saved in the Tribulation are ultimately of One Fold, with One Shepherd, so I don't see a justification for secluding those of this Age to a special category of Saint, apart from the distinction of the Age they are saved in, as contrasted with other periods.

    The Marriage Supper itself is a topic in it's own right. I lean heavily to the view that the Marriage Supper is technically the Millennial Kingdom itself. And I probably should not have said that, lol.

    Thanks for the post, AM, definitely the kind of things that need to be discussed.

    God bless.
     
  15. Darrell C

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    Please refrain from making this another argument about Systematic Theology. No-one here is interested in the same argument that is dragged into every discussion like this.

    I will not argue with you about Darby, nor will drag that into this thread.

    I am asking nicely.

    If you want to show how you "believe in the Millennium of Revelation 20," fine,you are very welcome to the discussion...but leave your pet peeves out of the discussion. This is a discussion that focuses on what Scripture says, not what men think. And since there is no Scripture in regards to Darbyism, there is no need to discuss it.


    God bless.
     
  16. agedman

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    Perhaps you didn't catch that I do distinguish between the "marriage Supper" and the "supper of the Great God."

    There really is no other way to read the way John lays out the matter in Rev 19.

    The marriage supper of the lamb with the bride takes place while the tribulation on the earth unfolds.

    The Second coming gathers all wild things to the feast of God, it is a matter of not just justice, but of hygiene.
     
  17. Darrell C

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    No, I just wanted to make sure that was what you meant, as "supper" was a prominent element of what you said.

    Now, the big question is...what do you base the Marriage Supper of the Lamb taking place during the Tribulation on?

    Revelation 19 again?

    And I will check back tomorrow, my time is gone.


    God bless.
     
  18. agedman

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    (the expressions of this next part are my opinion)

    The existing heaven and earth are no longer after the millennium; therefore, the 24 thrones in Heaven (Rev. 5) can't be for the saints because, 1) the New Heaven and earth express some of the glorification rights of the saints, 2) there is not a time when saints sit on any throne near God before the judgment seat of Christ, The only indicator of heavenly seating is at the marriage supper and when the disciples disputed who was going to sit next to Christ, 3) the time of the display of the seats was before the lamb acquired the scroll. One might assume the "elders" are glorified humans, but it may just as well be leaders of God over various aspects of His creation. The Scriptures are not completely clear, and I take the view that they are not from the earth.

    I agree, and as I have stated, so does Paul in Romans 11.

    That is an interesting view which I at one time considered, but because I didn't have the time and my efforts were better spent elsewhere, never continued to investigate.

    But, I am open to persuasion.
     
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  19. agedman

    agedman
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    Rev. 19
    "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready." It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright [and] clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

    Then he said to me, "Write, Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.'" And he said to me, "These are true words of God."​

    From these three verses, I see: 1) the marriage of the Lamb has come, and the bride is ready. 2) The bride clothes are without spot, bright, and of finest linen. A linen that is restricted to the righteous acts of the saints, and 3) the attendance is for invited guests only.

    So, yes I see the marriage supper as taking place while the earth is in great turmoil. A time when the saints no longer cry out "How Long," for they see from the heavenly porch the earth reeling from the wrath of God upon it. What better time to sit down and rejoice with the Lord and giving Him all praise and glory?
     
  20. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    Nothing wrong with that, lol. Thanks for clarifying though.


    One indicator that these are saints is that they cast their crowns before him:

    Revelation 4:10

    King James Version (KJV)

    10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,



    We understand that believers will receive a crown and crowns, and this is associated a couple of times with Christ's appearing:


    2 Timothy 4:8

    King James Version (KJV)

    8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.



    Now while I would not be dogmatic, I would say there is a correlation between the Rapture and the receiving of crowns.


    We see the 24 thrones prior to the Tribulation. As you point out, this precedes the opening of the Scroll.


    And this is a good point:


    Matthew 19:28

    King James Version (KJV)

    28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


    Some speculate that 12 of the 24 thrones are these spoken of here, and 12 are for the Apostles.

    Now an argument could be raised, "Wait a minute...John sees 24, not 23," lol. True, but keep in mind that John is shown the future, and I don't think we could dogmatically say he couldn't be in that vision.

    True, but this becomes moot if the Rapture precedes the Tribulation. I personally see John catching up as an indicator of the timing of the Rapture. It precedes the Tribulation, which is in itself moot because all of these saints, if they are the twelve tribes and the twelve Apostles are already dead.

    I do, simply because I hold to the pre-Trib view.


    Just for clarification, do you mean Angels? Not human?


    Still not sure, but, we do see the non-humans present identified:


    Revelation 4:6-10

    King James Version (KJV)

    6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

    7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

    8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

    9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

    10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,



    I second that second, lol.

    It's not something I am completely dogmatic at this point. I like to leave room for the possibility I might be in error. I'll take a closer look at what has just been primarily something I have not studied as well as it probably could be.

    And now have to get going, overstayed my time once more.


    God bless.
     

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