Who really is a Jew in God's Eyes ?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by savedbymercy, Nov 3, 2011.

  1. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
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    Rom 2:28-29

    28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

    29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

    Forget about what man says What does God's word say about this issue ? Well according to the word of Truth, a Jew is one inwardly !

    It is when a man or woman has partaken of a inward work of the Holy Spirit. A Jew is that hidden person of the heart Peter points to in 1Pet 3:4

    4But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

    That which is born again of incorruptible seed 1 Pet 1:23

    Rom 7:22 points to a Jew Rom 7:22

    22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

    That inward part of a redeemed born again Person that delights in the Law of God, which only a born again does ! Being a Jew is that one who desires Truth in the inward parts like David acknowledges Ps 51:6

    6Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

    God in answering Job stated Job 38:36

    36Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart? Note: on given understanding See 1 Jn 5:19

    A Jew is one whom God hath put wisdom in the inward parts, understanding to the mind.

    Job earlier says that Understanding is Job 28:28

    28And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the LORD, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

    It is the Fear of the Lord, and to depart from evil is understanding ! And Christ gives Understanding 1 Jn 5:19, so it is He that causes one to depart from Evil !

    A Jew is any Person, who by an inward work of Grace and the Spirit of God, Fears God ! The virtuous woman in Prov 31 was a Jew Prov 31:30


    30Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised. See Rom 2:29

    Cornelius the gentile and his household were Jews Acts 10:2,35

    2A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

    35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

    The Gospel is sent as a word of Salvation to all whom Fear God Acts 13:26

    26Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

    You see, A Genuine Fear of God is what God defines as a Jew, not a ethnic race of flesh. Yes there is a people like that, but they are not the Jews that God recognizes as His People !
     
  2. billwald

    billwald
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    You have written a good argument for John Calvin's theology.
     
  3. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter
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    Jerked out of context again! Look at the three verses that introduce these two verses:

    25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.


    He is addressing the once born ethnic Jew whose confidence in the day of judgement has its initial origin with EXTERNAL circumcision.

    Paul's argument is very simple. This initial external rite finds profitability in the day of judgement only if the whole life that follows it does not violate any point of the law. If they violate any point of the law then the intitial circumcision is rendered unprofitable. Hence, it is the life that follows which either makes circumcison profitable or unprofitable in the day of judgement.



    26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

    Now, since the profitability of circumcision is validated by the sinless life that follows it, therefore, "IF" a gentile could live a life that did not violate the law, then such a life would make his external uncircumcised flesh be regarded the same thing as circumcised flesh as the only value of circumcised flesh is a sinless life that follows.

    Note the word, "IF"! Paul is not claiming that such a gentile can do that any more than a Jew could do that. Your theory and application rests upon the assumption that a gentile could do this. Paul brings the gentile into this discussion only as a hypothetical case to prove that the Judiazers have misinterpreted the ordinance of circumcision and its true profitability as a "sign" and "seal" of inward righteousness (Rom. 4:11).

    The very next verse (Rom. 3:1-2) Paul tells them that being a "Jew" and having "circumcision" is profitable when you understand God's design behind them. That design is what Paul spells out in verses 28-29

    28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

    29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God


    He is still addressing ethnic Jews and only ethnic Jews. He has not said that a Gentile can fulfill all the law any more than any Jew can fulfill all the law. He is still addressing what does circumcision profit an ethnic Jew as the very next two verses prove.

    1 ¶ What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
    2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.


    Being a "jew" and being "circumcised" profits them "much EVERY WAY" if they understand God's design behind circumcision and the Law given to them as ethnic Jews. It is to teach them the need of new birth, a new heart, and faith in Christ as Savior in keeping with the fulfillment of God's promise to the "father's" to produce a twice born ethnic but spiritual Israel of God according to election.

    Just because the new birth and salvation under the New Covenant is EQUAL to both Jews and Gentiles does not mean that Gentiles become Jews or Jews cease being ethnic Jews. They share the same spiritual basis of salvation but they do not share the same redemptive design (Rom. 11).

    He is addressing Jews not Gentiles:

    17 ¶ Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

    23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

    25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

    1 ¶ What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
    2 Much every way
    :

    The contextual difference is between what the Judaizers "called a Jew" versus what God calls a Jew. The Judiazer went no further than external's but God went further than mere externals. God's defintion does not reject the external as Romans 3:1-2 proves but it denies that the external is the fulfillment as Romans 3:28-29 proves.
     
    #3 Dr. Walter, Nov 5, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 5, 2011
  4. savedbymercy

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    Anyone who fears God, the One and True God has received circumcision of the heart, so says Rom 2:29

    29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. See Deut 30:6

    God is here saying, that to be a Jew or of the Circumcision, is a matter of an inward circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit. Paul speaking to Phillipian believers, who we know for sure one was a Roman by ethnicity Acts 16:27-32 and He says of them Phil 3:3

    3For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

    That means the Roman Phillipian Jailor and all other believers who rejoice in Christ Jesus as Jews according to God's Standard, not man's.

    Mere physical circumcision of the ethnic jews meant nothing to God as far as being a Jew He accepts is concern. God determines who a Jew is by giving them heart circumcision [new birth]. It takes a New Spiritual Birth to Fear God, because men by nature, jew or gentile has no fear of God in their eyes Rom 3:18

    18There is no fear of God before their eyes.

    Quote:
    There is no fear of God before their eyes.
    ] The place referred to is (Psalms 36:1) , by the "fear of God", is not meant a fear of God's wrath, of hell and damnation; nor a fearful distrust of his presence, power, providence, and grace; much less an hypocritical fear; but a reverential affection for God, and which is peculiar to the children of God, which springs from a sense of divine goodness, is attended with holiness of heart and life, is consistent with faith, even full assurance of it, and with spiritual joy in its highest degree; it stands opposed to pride and haughtiness, and is a blessing of the covenant of grace: now this is not to be found in unregenerate men, for this springs from grace, and not nature, and is only implanted in the heart in conversion; it appears from the whole life and conversation of unconverted men, that the fear of God is not in their hearts, nor before their eyes. John Gill
    A Person who is a ethnic jew by birth and never born again, you are not a Jew as God defines a Jew, you are a counterfeit jew Rev 3:9, but a ethnic jew or a non ethnic jew, a gentile,if ye be born again, you are a Jew according to God's definition of a Jew, no matter what anyone says to the contrary. Being a Jew in God's sight is not a matter of race or ethnicity of the flesh, period ! A Gentile who has been born again has more rights to be called a Jew than the ethnic jew who has not been born again, in the sight of God !
     
  5. Dr. Walter

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    Paul is not referring to Romans. The church at Philippi was composed of many Jews, (first members were of a Jewish household - Lydia) and there were a party of Jews that travelled with Paul who was a Jew as he goes on in verses 4-5 to explicitly describe himself. He said "we" not "ye" and he is referring to ethnic Jews who have been twice born.
     
  6. plain_n_simple

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    Any person, born again, believing on Jesus, having the heart circumcised, is a Jew...period.
     
  7. savedbymercy

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    Thats True !
     
  8. billwald

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    >Anyone who fears God, the One and True God has received circumcision of the heart, so says Rom 2:29

    Mormons, JWs, Islamics . . . .
     
  9. Dr. Walter

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    Not so! According to Paul there is "neither JEW or gentile...in Christ" according the new birth.

    The term "jew" is an ethnic discription always placed in contrast to the term "gentile" even in Paul's statement above.

    You are claiming that "in Christ" all are "Jews" while Paul denies any such distinction "in Christ" but rather only a "new man" neither Jew or gentile but "spiritual."

    In terms of SYMBOLISM the heart is either uncircumcised or circumcised but both Jews and Gentiles can be physically circumcised and spiritually circumcised and still there is neither "Jew or Gentile....in Christ." Hence, the saint may be SYMBOLIC of what Jews were designed to be but they never replace God's redemptive covenant specifically for the elect ethnic Israel (Rom. 11:25-28).
     
    #9 Dr. Walter, Nov 6, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 6, 2011
  10. savedbymercy

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    When Paul says that there is neither jew or gentile in Christ, He is speaking of ethnicity, the outward distinctions, the flesh.

    However the Spiritual Jew has nothing to do with ethnicity, its an inward work of Grace that Produces Faith.

    Thats your problem in all your understanding, you equate all with the flesh. Rom 9:8

    8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    The New Birth, heart Circmcision, makes a Jew Paul says Rom 2:29

    29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
     
  11. plain_n_simple

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    That's it!
     
  12. Dr. Walter

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    Wrong again! When Paul says there is neither "Jew" or gentile "in Christ" he is proving that the term "Jew" is by definition an ethnic description which has no basis for "in Christ" spiritual descriptions. Those in Christ are described as "spiritual" or "new man" but NEVER in terms that inherently express their definitive fleshly distinctions (Jews, Gentiles, bond, free, male or female).

    The term "Jew" is never used in scripture for the spirital status of God's children any more than the term "Gentile" would be.

    Whenever the term "Jew" is used it is by inherent ETHNIC definition in contrast to "Gentile." You can be a "spiritual" Jew equally as you can be a "spiritual" Gentile or a "spiritual" man equally as a "spiritual" woman but the point of union is the term "spiritual" not Jew or Gentile, bond or free, male or female as the term "spiritual" does not change the status according to the flesh of which all these terms are confined inherently by definition and use.

    Hence, in context, Romans 2:28-29 is addressing those who are "called a Jew" (v. 17) and the "thou" and "you" demonstrate this all the way through. The ethnic Jew who is circumcised of heart is a "spiritual" Jew but a gentile circumcised in heart would be a "spiritual" gentile. The same is true in the contexts of Romans 9-11 as the terms "Jew" and "Gentile" are ALWAYS placed in contrast to each other consistently throughout Romans 9-11. The same is true of the context in Galations.
     
  13. plain_n_simple

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    Thank you savedbymercy for providing the scripture!
     
  14. savedbymercy

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    Amen, thats my calling !
     
  15. Dr. Walter

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    providing the scripture is one thing providing the correct interpretation is quite another thing and that obviously was not your calling.
     
  16. Dr. Walter

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    Paul is explicitly addressing the ethnic Jew in Romans 2:17-29 and the only disctinction he makes is between what is "called a Jew" according to "the letter" versus "spiritual" but a ethnic Jew in both cases.

    27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
    28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh
    :

    The distinction is not to be found in the ethnic term "Jew" but the contrast is between "the letter" versus "spiritual." The Jew according to "the letter" is lost whereas the Jew according to the spirit is saved. Hence, what is "called a Jew" (v. 17) according to the "letter" is not the fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham in regard to the "Jew" but what is "called a Jew" in addition to the flesh according to the spirit is the "Jew" according to election (Rom. 9:4-13). This is the "jew" that the "remant" of Israel consists of NOW and this is the "jew" that Israel as a nation will consist THEN at the coming of Christ (Rom. 11:25-28). All other human beings are "gentiles" by first birth and all elect Gentiles are children of promise from among "the nations" but never from the "nation" of Israel. The non-Jewish elect are reference by the prepositional phrase "on them" (Gentile promised children) while the Jewish elect are referenced by the prepositional phrasre "upon the Israel of God" (Gal. 6:16).
     
    #16 Dr. Walter, Nov 8, 2011
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  17. HankD

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    There are two births, one after the flesh, one after the Spirit...

    John 3
    6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
    7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
    8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.​

    Those born after the Spirit (Jew or Gentile) have no ethnicity but are the children of God.​

    Who is a Jew after the flesh is debatable.
    The Israeli government says you must have an identifiable jewish mother.​

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew?


    You can be a Jew by flesh birth or by conversion and Mikvah.​


    HankD​
     
  18. savedbymercy

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    hank

    Correct and they are True Jews Indeed Rom 2:29

    29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

    This Jew has nothing to do with Ethnicity !
     
  19. Dr. Walter

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    The term "Jew" does not change meaning in this text or context. He is addressing ethnical jews not gentiles (Rom. 2:17-3:2) both before (Rom. 2:17-27) and after this text (Rom. 3:1-8).

    The dispute is over the fulfilled meaning of circumcision as applied to the "Jew." The gentiles never submitted to circumcision. This was strictly a JEWISH matter. However, the fulfilled typology of circumcision was applicable to all the elect - regeneration.

    However, in regard to those who are "called a Jew" (Rom. 2:17) mere limited physical undestanding and application of circumcision made them an unfulfilled "Jew" in God's sight. They got the physical but not the spiritual. The fulfilled Jew was circumcised according to the Law AND according to the Spirit thus a TWICE BORN Jew (Rom. 9:5-11). This was a TRUE JEW in the fullest sense of circumcision.

    Now, SBG's interpretation of this text would demand the complete repudiation of physical circumcision according to "the law" and according to "the flesh" but Paul does not completely repudiate circumcision in the flesh in this context:

    25 For circumcision verily profiteth.....3:1 ¶ What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way:....

    Paul is not telling the Jews to forsake circumcision in the flesh but only to forsake the LIMITED view of circumcision. Remember, Paul had Timothy circumcised. The fulfilled "Jew" is one who is circumcised "in spirit" as well as according to the flesh. That is a TRUE JEW where circumcision is fulfilled or complete in flesh and in spirit. The unfulfilled "Jew" was only a ONCE BORN Jew.
     
  20. savedbymercy

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    dw

    Thats a Lie. Here whose He addressing Rom 1:7

    7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
     

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