Who really was Jesus Christ?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by evangelist-7, May 18, 2012.

  1. evangelist-7

    evangelist-7
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    “… do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
    And she will bring forth a Son, and you (Joseph) shall call His name JESUS …” (Matthew 1:20-21)

    “… Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,”
    which is translated, “God with us.” (Matthew 1:23, quoting Isaiah 7:14)

    “And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS.
    … He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest
    The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you;
    therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.” (Luke 1:31-35)


    I find it quite interesting that Gabriel said to CALL the future Baby: “Jesus”, “the Son of God”,
    “Immanuel”, and “the Son of the Highest” … but Gabriel did NOT say that the Baby WAS these things.
    Jesus really WAS the Son of God because the Holy Spirit (God) obviously played the role of His father.
    This is the ONLY time this has ever happened, so Jesus truly was God's unique “ONLY-begotten” Son.


    This “Jesus” was a new and very unique creation
    “In the beginning was the Word (the Logos), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    … And the Word (the Logos) became flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1:1,14).

    Let us stress the fact that the Word (the Logos), the Second Person of the Trinity, BECAME Jesus Christ.
    A technicality --> Since this “Jesus” actually was a new creation, and was “fully God and fully man”,
    He could NOT possibly have been in Heaven previously, let alone been part of the Triune Godhead.
    And, is there any evidence that “the Son of God” was ever in Heaven prior to the birth of Jesus Christ?


    What did the Holy Spirit accomplish when He “overshadowed” Mary?
    Why does Scripture emphasize that Jesus did NOT have a human father and a normal conception?
    He could very easily have had BOTH a normal conception AND the Holy Spirit overshadowing Him.
    Some Bibles correctly state that Mary and Joseph were Jesus’ “parents”, not His mother and “father”.
    Mary “conceived” in her womb (Luke 1:31) … so IMO, the Holy Spirit provided the male sperm/seed
    for the fertilizing of the female ovum/egg … as opposed to Him performing a creative miracle.
    This meant that the “Holy One” (Luke 1:35) would NOT have man’s inherited sin nature.
    The highly-acclaimed NKJV Study Bible says the term “Holy One” refers to Jesus’ sinlessness.
    Jesus NOT having man’s sin nature was the ONLY possible way that He could live a totally sinless life
    … and to be the absolutely perfect, spotless, blameless, sacrificial Lamb of God (to pay for our sins)!
    Jesus being “holy … separate from sinners” (Heb. 7:26) means He did NOT have man’s sin nature.


    More on man’s inherited sin nature
    Mary was a normal flesh and blood human with a sin nature … so IMO,
    this proves the sin nature is passed down in man's sperm/seed, and not in the blood.
    There are many Scripture verses which teach that ALL humans have a sin nature.
    As far as I know, ALL of the famous Bible commentaries teach this truth.
    Having man’s “flesh and blood” (Heb. 2:14-17) and coming “in the likeness of sinful flesh” (Rom. 8:3)
    simply means that Jesus came looking like a man, but it does NOT mean Jesus had man’s sin nature.
    Paul teaches that man is held captive to “the law of sin and death” (Romans 8:2 and 7:23-25).
    This “law” of sin (which leads to spiritual death) simply means that ALL men MUST sin!
    However, Jesus did NOT have this problem because He did NOT have man’s sin nature.
    .
     
  2. Jedi Knight

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    John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
    John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
    John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
    These are a few for now. Jesus was in Heaven before.
     
  3. Jedi Knight

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    John 12:41 Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him.
    When did Isaiah see Jesus in His glory? Well lets see..... Isaiah 6:1 In the year of King Uzziah's death I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple.
     
  4. Yeshua1

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    God the Son/Logos was eternally with God father and Spirt, all 3 of them being part of the Godhead!

    that One of the Godhead became incarnated as a Human, and His humanity was the created aspect of His being, as that was born in mary, while his diety was also there in mary, so he was/is God/man!

    He is the Son of God, of the Father, NOT the Holy Spirit, as the father was One that eternally begotten Him!
     
    #4 Yeshua1, May 19, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: May 19, 2012
  5. billwald

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    A person who does not "believe in" the Trinity doctrine is not a Christian and should not be posting on this forum according to the list rules.
     
  6. evangelist-7

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    Are we agreed that Jesus often spoke as man and often spoke as God?
    In your verses above, why are you so sure that He was NOT speaking as being the Word (the Logos), which He was?
    The Word (the Logos) became flesh, i.e. Jesus Christ.

    What did the Word (the Logos) look like in Heaven? Maybe He looked like Jesus.
    .
     
    #6 evangelist-7, May 19, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: May 19, 2012
  7. evangelist-7

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    Saying the above simply just NOT make it true.
    Please prove Scripturally that the Son of God was in Heaven before Jesus' birth.
    You saying something doesn't prove anything.
    .
     
    #7 evangelist-7, May 19, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: May 19, 2012
  8. ktn4eg

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    "And God said, Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness;" --Genesis 1:26

    So who exactly was God talking to in that verse???
     
  9. evangelist-7

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    Does the Trinity doctrine insist on the Son of God being in Heaven prior to Jesus' birth?
    Perhaps it does, in which case you are correct.

    P.S. I have always been an extremely strong believer in the Triune Godhead!
    .
     
  10. evangelist-7

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    Well, why not ... Father God, the Word(the Logos), and the Holy Spirit?

    After all, the Word (the Logos) was God who came down and became flesh.
    Just maybe the Word (the Logos) might be 1 of the 3 Persons of the Triune Godhead.

    Someone please prove Scripturally that the Word (the Logos) was/is the Son of God.
    Simple.
    .
     
  11. mandym

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    I will try this one time to reason with you:

    Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

    Now I am quite suspicious that you are a troll that was recently banned. Your questions bring about suspicion because they are elementary and you ignore reasonable responses which appears to be not out of reason but because you hold to your heresy.
     
  12. ktn4eg

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    "For by him [Jesus Christ, see previous verses] were all things CREATED, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: and he is before all things and by him all things consist." -- Colossians 1:16-17

    Jesus Christ was indeed present at the creation.
     
  13. evangelist-7

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    Perhaps a moderator or two would care to explain some basics, such as:
    -- Jesus was "fully man and fully God"
    -- Sometimes Jesus spoke as the Word, and sometimes He spoke as a man
    -- Jesus (the Word) existed before the foundation of the world, but Jesus (the man) did not
    -- Father God created "all things" through Jesus (the Word), but not through Jesus (the man)
    -- Jesus (the man) died on the cross, but Jesus (the Word) did not (i.e. God did not die)
    and a multitude of many etc.

    Once all of this is understood, maybe we can continue reasonably.
     
  14. Fred's Wife

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    Before the foundation of the world the only begotten of the Father was constantly abiding in the Father’s bosom.

    John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

    The Father sent/gave His own Son into/to this world. Jesus Christ never BECAME the Son of God, He ALWAYS existed as the Son of God.

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

    John 17:25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

    Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
     
  15. evangelist-7

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    You begin with a quote that is a pile of nonsense, especially re: our subject.

    Your quotes are better, but you're forgetting that ...
    The Word (the Logos), who was/is God, BECAME flesh (Jesus Christ).

    John 1:18 … How could Jesus be the Son of God on earth, and also be in the Father’s bosom?
    John 3:16-17 … The Father gave/sent the Son to die on the cross for our sins.
    John 17:5 … The Word (the Logos) who became Jesus was the Second Person of the Triune Godhead.
    And your other verses are answered similarly.

    Prior to Jesus' birth, in Heaven we have Three ... Father God, the Word(Logos), the Holy Spirit
    After Jesus' birth, in Heaven we have Two ... Father God, the Holy Spirit
    After Jesus' birth, on earth we have One ... the Word(Logos)--Jesus--Son of God--and many other names
    After Jesus' ascension, on earth we have One ... the Holy Spirit
    This is for simplicity's sake, not considering that when you have One, you really have all Three!

    Just made this up ... it's not copyrighted ... feel free to use it.
    .
     
    #15 evangelist-7, May 19, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: May 19, 2012
  16. The Biblicist

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    You asked for scripture that proves that the Son of God prexisted the incarnation. Fred's wife provided that text in John 1:18.

    Now, you challenge the text with human logic instead of accepting for what it explicitly states.

    The divine nature is omnipresent and thus while his humanity is squarely upon earth speaking to Nicodemus yet he claims that He is at the same time present in heaven:

    13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    You admit that Jesus Christ is both "God" and "man". Hence, use your logic in keeping with the nature you are addressing. In regard to his humanity, humanity is not by nature omnipresent, omniscient or omnipotent. However, the Divine nature is characterized by all the above.

    You are doing the JW twisted logic thing! You are pitting one nature against the other and then using one to deny the other. What you should be doing is categorizing all Divine characteristics with only the divine nature and categarozing all human characteristics with only the human nature and leave the mystery of how both can coexist as a subject of faith, but not blind faith, becuase the scriptures clearly teach it regardless if you can bring it down to your lowly finite logic.

    Hence, the Son of God, The Word prexisted in the bosom of the Father prior to the incarnation. The incarnation as God taking upon himself the "likeness" (schema - outward appearance) of humanity as well as the true nature of humanity "form" (morphe) yet without denying the continuance of the unchanging "form" (morphe) nature of God (Philip. 2:6-7).
     
    #16 The Biblicist, May 19, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: May 19, 2012
  17. Fred's Wife

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    "A pile of nonsense"? How so? My understanding of "our subject" must be incorrect. It is my understanding that the "subject" is "Who really was Jesus Christ?" and did He pre-exist as the Son before His Incarnation. If this is incorrect, then, instead of telling me that my quote is a "pile of nonsense" please clarify what "our subject" is.

    I also don't understand the last part of your post. My understanding of Who Jesus Christ is, is apparently not the same as yours. I understand Jesus Christ to be God manifest in the flesh, the eternal Son of God, sent from the bosom of the Father to be the Redeemer of lost mankind. I also believe that God is Omnipotent (All-powerful), Omniscient (All-knowing), and Omnipresent (Present in every place at the same time).
     
  18. Fred's Wife

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    :thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  19. savedbymercy

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    Yes, Jesus Christ was in Heaven as the Son of God before He was Manifested through the virgin Mary, John writes this 1 Jn 3:8

    He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

    Do you know what that word manifested means ? It is the greek word phaneroō:



    to make manifest or visible or known what has been hidden or unknown, to manifest, whether by words, or deeds, or in any other way

    a) make actual and visible, realised

    b) to make known by teaching

    c) to become manifest, be made known

    d) of a person

    1) expose to view, make manifest, to show one's self, appear

    e) to become known, to be plainly recognised, thoroughly understood

    1) who and what one is

    The Son of God showed Himself, came to view,was made known through the Virgin Birth, He came in another form different from how He existed before He took on the form of a servant ! Phil 2:5-8

    5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

    6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

    7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

    8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
     
  20. billwald

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    >>Originally Posted by billwald
    >>A person who does not "believe in" the Trinity doctrine is not a Christian and should not be posting on this forum according to the list rules.


    >Does the Trinity doctrine insist on the Son of God being in Heaven prior to Jesus' birth?
    >Perhaps it does, in which case you are correct.

    OK, Propose an alternate location.
     

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