Who Says Only the Originals Have to Be Inspired?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by AVBunyan, Aug 23, 2004.

  1. AVBunyan

    AVBunyan
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    A recent post on this forum stated:

    “If you are really serious about your definition of the Word of God then you better burn your KJV and go find one of the original autographs. Only the original autographs can truly fit your definition of the Word of God.”

    I’ve been waiting got see this in writing on this board so I’d like to comment on this popular “doctrine”. But first a few preliminary remarks about this "KJV" issue.

    1. If some of you folks think we are just trying to win an argument so we can glory in our flesh you are sadly mistaken. If you really believe this is our intent then you misunderstand us. I think I can speak for most “KJVO” folks on this. We desire to see others know that in their hands they can hold the very words of God without doubt (Gen. 3:1). By having this assurance it gives power and boldness in the Christian life. We desire others to have this confidence so they won’t be tossed to and fro in these last days of unbelief and apostasy. Do you think we enjoy the abuse? Do you really think we relish opening up this can of worms on a daily basis? We believe the MVs have created much confusion in these last days (I Cor. 14:33) and we would like to see it come to a screeching halt so there could be unity again.

    2. Some of us folks have a true conviction about this issue of authority and God’s words. This conviction is based upon the power of knowing and having God’s words in our hands. Also, we can what has been happening since the MVs have come out –a loss of real power, evangelism, and the work of God in saints’ lives because they do not believe they have the words of God – I Thess. 2:13. This has been a great deception Gen. 3:1. If you think today’s Christianity is as strong as previous centuries (1600’s-1900’s) then you need to brush up on your Church history! They basically had one book and did not question it like what is going on today.

    Now with that let’s talk about this “doctrine” of “Only the Originals are Inspired or the True Word of God”

    1. Where in any Bible does it say “only the originals” are inspired? Who invented this doctrine and “made it a fundamental of the faith”? Some of you folks are really hung up on this “original” issue. Do you believe that if you had the “originals” in your hands that you would get 110 volts of shock! Do you believe that if you had the real “originals” in your pulpit to preach from that your “baptism” count would go up?!?!? As God as my witness if I had the “originals” in my possession I would lock them up in a safe and preach out of a King James Bible and not bat and eye! Some of you folks would put them in a display case and bow down before them and then charge admission to finance your youth’s softball trip to Six Flags Over Texas!

    There is no verse in any Bible that say “only the originals are inspired” – someone dreamed that one up – sounds good – just not scriptural.

    Now this next part some of you will scoff at – some will say that is old stuff and some of you might say, “That makes sense to me!”

    2. In Tim. 3:16 it says: All scripture is given by inspiration…” If it is scripture it has to be inspired according to II Tim. 3:16. Don’t call what you have in your hands “scripture” unless you believe it to be inspired. The “Bible” says that if you want to call what you have “the scriptures” then it has to be inspired. If it is not inspired then it is not scripture.

    3. Look at II Tim. 3:15 – Timothy had the scriptures – according to vs. 16 there were inspired. Did Timothy have the originals? Of course not but what he had was inspired for the next verse says that the all scripture is inspired. Timothy had a copy of the scriptures and according to vs. 16 they were inspired and they were not the originals!

    The “scriptures” just told us that something other than the originals could be inspired.

    4. Can the AV1611 be inspired? Why not? Who or what says they couldn’t be – II Tim. 3:15,16 says more than just the originals can be scripture and thus be inspired.
    Were the KJV translators inspired men? No.
    Could what they have put down been inspired? Why not?
    I do not believe they were inspired but what God had them put down was.

    Don’t you believe God runs things? Don’t you believe that God works all things after the counsel of his own will – Eph. 1:11? Don’t you believe God can control have his hands upon a 1611 Bible committee? You mean you don’t take the providential approach to history? Do you mean that God just let’s man run things on his own? Do you mean that you are putting your faith or lack of faith in the KJV translators, which were mere men?
    THE 1611 TRANSLATORS WERE HOLY SCHOLARS AND HOLY MEN BUT MY FAITH IS IN THE GOD WHO CONTROLLED AND DIRECTED THE AFFAIRS OF THOSE MEN! No wonder why you folks keep using the translators as an excuse for faulty translating – your faith is in men and not the Providential hand of an all-powerful, all seeing, all-directing God!

    Again, we don’t care what you read or believe. But when what you read or believe or promote affects the work of the ministry down here then we have a duty to get involved to warn, DIVIDE, make war, instruct, encourage, EXPOSE, for the sake of others, (who desire to know), so that they can know what is going on here. Some of you folks don’t like final authority in your lives – you want to be able to pick and choose. You want a way out if all possible. Could it be pride?

    The bottom line – We desire true saints to know that hey have the inspired word of God in their hand so they can be equipped to do the work of the ministry.

    Some of us just happen to believe that we have the scriptures in our hands. Many of you don’t have the scriptures and by your own beliefs admit that.

    1 Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

    If you don’t’ believe what you have in your hands is the word of God it can’t work effectually in you. And guess what folks – our work, as a whole, is not very effectual. Part of the reason is most saints today don’t have the scriptures and according to Heb. 4:12 there is where the power comes from today. Yes, the Holy Spirit does the work but the Spirit utilizes the words of God down here.

    Finally, the above contained no name-calling or personal attacks. The fact that I’ve been called a fruitcake by one of you folks doesn’t bother me a bit. I admit I’m a fruitcake!!! It is funny though that some of you folks who complain out KVO folks being mean-spirited, smart-mouthed, and caustic have demonstrated you are prone to the same thing.

    There is an ole’ saying that says:
    “Nobody makes you what you are – they only revel what you are!”

    This KJVO issue has revealed that some folks just are not as spiritually minded as they think they are. While they point the finger at one’s “mean-spirited, smart-mouthed, and caustic” ways they can’t see that they are no different.

    Now, some of you folks will seek to pick this apart to show my faulty reasoning (and I’m sure there might be some) and blow a gasket seeking to show or ask me something I haven’t seen before and that’s fine. I won’t be here much longer anyway so have it while you have me in your sights for I’ve certainly painted you a big red target to make it easy for you!

    Personally I have no issues with any of you folks and if the enemy came after you for your beliefs I’d be there to stand at your side, as I’m sure you would for me – at least I hope!

    God bless

    [ August 25, 2004, 08:17 AM: Message edited by: Pastor_Bob ]
     
  2. HankD

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    Indeed.

    HankD
     
  3. KJVBibleThumper

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    Amen brother!! [​IMG] [​IMG]


    [edited to remove unnecessary lengthy quote]

    [ August 23, 2004, 11:33 PM: Message edited by: Pastor_Bob ]
     
  4. natters

    natters
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    AVBunyan said "Now with that let’s talk about this “doctrine” of “Only the Originals are Inspired or the True Word of God”"

    I do not believe it is a doctrine. I do not hold it as such, nor do I even believe that.
     
  5. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    AVBunyan: "We desire to see others know
    that in their hands they can hold the
    very words of God without doubt (Gen. 3:1)."

    You desire has been fulfilled with me.
    I have a Holman Christian Standard Bible
    (HCSB) in my hand and I know beyond any
    shadow of a doubt that it contains
    the very words of God: preserved by the
    Majesty of God throughout the age
    and in a language that I understand, to wit:
    21st century English.
    By Faith I know without out any chance of
    doubt that that the Holman Christian
    Standard Bible (HCSB) contains the very
    written words of God for me.
    Amen! Praise Jesus,
    the Living Word of God.
    [​IMG]
     
  6. USN2Pulpit

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    Ed, I've got one of those, too! Doesn't it read well?
     
  7. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Been using it nine months for teaching Sunday School.
    I like it.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. michelle

    michelle
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    AVBunyan,

    Amen!! to your post. Thank you so much for that post. You explained exactly what I know and understand. You have blessed me greatly, and I hope and pray others will also be blessed from reading your post. The Lord is truly glorified in your words.

    Thank you again, and may we continue to glorify the Lord always in all we say and do.

    Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  9. Marcia

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    If the original autographs were around, men could meddle with them and change them. Or men would worship the original autographs like a religious relic.

    God in his wisdom has kept these from us, just as he has kept the ark, the cross Jesus died on, Jesus' robe, etc. from us.

    Despite man's failings like copyist errors and translation errors (even in the KJV!), God preserved his word through many translations and versions, all of which preach one God, one Savior, one Gospel message, one Church, one truth!
     
  10. TaterTot

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    OK, he didnt have the originals. Did he have KJV? You just admitted that he had something that was inspired, and it was neither the originals nor the KJV.
    I am not usually one to post to this debate, because frankly, we all seem to know where we stand without being interested in changing. But this just crossed my mind.
     
  11. DHK

    DHK
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    2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (KJV)

    2 Timothy 3:16 every Writing is God-breathed, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for setting aright, for instruction that is in righteousness, (YLT) Young's Literal Translation

    The word "inspired means "God-breathed", as is more accurately translated in the YLT in this case. What is God-breathed? That is, what is inspired. It clearly says that the Scripture is inspired, or the Writings are inspired. The question now becomes which ones.

    Posted by AVBunyan:
    Where in the Bible does it say "only the originals are inspired? For the sake of some people's arrogance, and hopefully other's education and edification let's see.

    2 Peter 1:20-21 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
    21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

    #1. Note first of all that the prophecy (as applied generally to all Scripture did not come by the will of man). The wiritings of the Old Testament prophets, the writings of the Apostles of the New Testament, came from Divine direction of the Holy Spirit. It did not come from the mind of man. No man or group of man can sit down, translate the Bible into their language, and claim that they have an inspired Bible. It does not come from the will of man. That is the first point to understand.

    #2. Holy men of God spoke. Most of the prophets and apostles had an emmanuensis to copy down the words that they spoke. Whether they actually wrote their own books or not is not the point, however. The point is that they were holy men of God. The expression "holy men of God" refers only to the prophets of the Old Testament in context, and by extension the Apostles of the New Testament. Once the canon of Scripture was closed inspiration ceased. It was not the holy men of old that were inspired. It was the words that they spoke. Thus only the original manuscripts were inspired. Only what these holy men of God spoke were inspired. But not everything that they spoke were inspired.

    #3. "as they were moved by the Holy Spirit" The idea here is that the inspired words that the holy men of God spoke were borne along by the Holy Spirit. Thus not everything that Paul or Peter said was inspired, only those things that the Holy Spirit moved them to say were inspired. Peter knew which of Paul's epistles were Scripture, and vice-versa. He gives us evidence of such.

    2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
    --Peter speaks of Paul's epistles as Scriptures, "as they do also the other Scriptures." He recognizes that many of the epistles that Paul has written are Scripture.

    2 Peter 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
    --Note the teaching of this verse carefully. Be mindful of the words or teaching of: 1) the holy prophets (OT), and 2) "us, the apostles." Peter teaches that the words, commandments, writings of the Apostles are just as important as those of the prophets contained in the Old Testament.
    Now these people did not have the KJV!! These manuscripts were written in Greek and Hebrew. God inspired the Old Testament in Hebrew, and the New Testament in Greek. He states clearly that only the words of holy men of God who spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit; only those words were inspired. Only the original manuscripts were inspired. This is a Biblical teaching. It always has been. Nowadays there is a group of people who are rejecting this plain truth of the Bible. These original words of the Apostles and Prophets were inspired, that is, God-breathed. God did not breathe the breath of life into any other writers othen than them. To say otherwise is heresy.

    Though I respect the KJV very much; though it is the translation that I use most of the time, I must come face to face with the facts—the KJV is only a translation. ALL translations are not perferct. NO translation is inspired. In every translation some meaning is lost through the translation work, no matter how competent the translators may have been. Man is a sinner. He is fallible. He makes mistakes. No Bible is perfect because man translates it, and it is man who makes the mistakes. That is why God puts the onus on us to "Study to show ourselves approved unto God…" There is nothing to be ashamed of in studying the Word of God.
    God promised to preserve His Word. I believe that He has preserved His Word, but not in any translation. I am a missionary. I go to a foreign nation that does not speak English. What do I tell them about the Word of God. I tell them the truth. That God inspired the words of the prophets and apostles. We no longer have the original copies that they wrote. They did not last 2,000 plus years, but copies of them have. They have been translated many times into many different languages, and the Bible that you hold in your hand is the Word of God.
    Have you ever heard of the KISS rule.
    DHK
     
  12. Cix

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    OK, he didnt have the originals. Did he have KJV? You just admitted that he had something that was inspired, and it was neither the originals nor the KJV.
    I am not usually one to post to this debate, because frankly, we all seem to know where we stand without being interested in changing. But this just crossed my mind.
    </font>[/QUOTE][​IMG] AVBunyan. Insert foot in mouth. :eek:
     
  13. Cix

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    DHK, very nice. AVBunyan, you stand rebuked and corrected. Rebuked by the scripture.

    2 Timothy 3:16 NIV
    All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
     
  14. Ed Edwards

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    Amen, Sister Marcia -- Preach it! [​IMG]

    Being KJVO does NOT make a hive of Super
    Khristians.

    The scripture you alude to in Ephesians 4
    still DOES NOT say "one Bible".

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Archangel7

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    If the original language texts from which the KJV was translated were the "final authority" for the KJV *translators* back in the 17th C., why shouldn't they be regarded as the "final authority" today?
     
  16. michelle

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    --------------------------------------------------
    If the original language texts from which the KJV was translated were the "final authority" for the KJV *translators* back in the 17th C., why shouldn't they be regarded as the "final authority" today?
    --------------------------------------------------

    Because I don't KNOW OR SPEAK HEBREW AND GREEK. God PROVIDED his INSPIRED WORDS in my OWN LANGUAGE. That is why, and it is EVIDENT.

    By the way, what then do YOU consider to be scripture in your language? You apparently do not believe you have the scripture of God, but of man, as you believe man's fallible errors are in the scriptures, so therefore, they CANNOT BE THE WORD OF TRUTH. Are you telling me, I must now go to the Greek and Hebrew? OR that I must rely upon your interpretation/opinion of it says, or some other man's interpretation/opinion of what that is today, even though it is contrary to what God already provided me? I THINK NOT! This is one sure way of not only doubting the word of God in our language, but giving myself over to possible DECEPTION. Thanks but no thanks. I have the infallible and inspired scriptures in MY OWN LANGUAGE that I can hold with my hands, and read and understand with MY OWN EYES and HEART, that NO MAN TODAY WILL EVER TAKE AWAY FROM ME. And SHAME ON YOU for trying to DECIEVE THE NAIVE!

    Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  17. AVL1984

    AVL1984
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    Michelle, noone on the MV side is trying to deceive anyone, but those on the side of the KJV intentionally try to misrepresent the MV's. When I hold the NIV or NASB in my hand, I hold the Word of God, trustworthy for rebuke, instruction and salvation. Again, you with your naivity are trying to cast doubt on others, and that's a shame and a sin.

    AVL1984
     
  18. TaterTot

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    If you study the Greek and Hebrew, then you KNOW if a translation is fairly accurate. No blind trust there.
     
  19. RaptureReady

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    Amen AVBunyan! Good post, and I agree, I'm not here to show how much I know, because that is very little. I'm here to let the people of God know that you can believe in a one book word of God and let the devil know that someone still believes in a inerrant, infallible, preserved, and inspired word of God. All glory goes to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
     
  20. Cix

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    Tatertot, there's no winning any arguments here with Michele. She's hard line KJVO and any facts you present to her go in one ear and out the other.
     

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