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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by ituttut, Nov 13, 2010.
It is someone, but who says drinking is a sin?
Hmm. I don't know. Did it start with the Prohibition Movement? I remember reading about angry housewives taking hatchets to the local saloons. . .
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Drinking isn't but drunkenness is pretty bad. If you were in a Baptist church in Germany they do have alcohol at functions so what I was told by someone who worked out there for three years. They also take 10 percent out of your check before you get it. So are they cheerful givers?
Ten per cent of taxes are given to the State churches. Members of independent Evangelical can opt out. Also at the State churches - they still take an offering.
Check this article from the International Center fro Not-for-Profit Law.
Note: a state church is not run by the govt, but is supported.
I don't think we will come up with an answer to that question. However, the idea that it is a sin to drink arose out of the temperence movement that began on the American frontier and later moved into the working class sections of our cities. Alcoholism was a huge problem in those days, even bigger than it is today. Men would not work because of their drinking, or they would spend their entire paycheck on drinking, leaving their families destitute. After drinking up the family paycheck, they would come home and treat their family cruelly. As with any social problem, when it becomes serious enough, people will rise up against it. Thus the temperence movement began, and its message caught on in the churches. Like most social movements, the pendulum swung too far against all use of alcohol and the message has never gone away.
I can't really explain why the movement took hold so much stronger among the Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians and Campbellites. It didn't seem to catch on in the Catholic and Episcopal churches.
I think it was Adrian Rogers. Nah, just kidding, it was Billy Sunday.
Maybe that's why they drink.......
We don't know if Timothy (from the NT) thought it was a 'sin' to drink but we know that he absolutely refrained from it, even though it was a known medicinal cure for his common ailment. And he was potentially one of the apostle Paul's disciple to boot. One must ask the question - why would he not touch the stuff if he didn't think it was sin, to even help himself with a common malady with a very readily available and cheap cure.
We also know that he was not the only one since Paul was dealing with it with others in his messages regarding food and 'Drink'.
So it is apparent it was an issue back in the time of the apostle and there after.
Thus is not a new thought or issue, but dates back nearly 2000 years in recorded christian history.
as a side note:
We do know that in early to mid 1900's of American Culture it was revived due to the excessive alcoholic consumption that had become rampant and apart of life at the time. We also know that because of this all the issues that go along with such activity like increased crime and social and family issues jumped as well to new heights and were still climbing. It is no wonder our Government (not the prohibitioners) outlawed alcohol at the request of the prohibitioners of the time. It is funny how many people place the blame on them and not the ones who outlawed it .. and WHY.
For me it was my father. He didn't care if you drank, but no one in his family should. One of my friends and I was talking about this in the last few weeks, there is a pastor who is open about drinking and he and two of his staff were caught last summer for DWI. He is now saying they were picking on him. I say when he got behind the wheel of the car he was picking on everyone else.
If you wish to drink, stay at home or have a driver, I've pulled to many folks out of cars due to a DWI. I've even had one run into me while I was parked and that ended her life, I've had three in my front yard.
In England, it was quite common and proper to have a glass of brandy whilst waiting for supper. No one frowned on that. So, it is not a sin question.
After a few night calls to rescue a battered woman from her drunk husband, one develops a total distaste for liquor of all sorts.
On the evangelical believer, society will frown upon you for drinking alcohol whilst they sip their beer. Isn't Paul who speaks of refraining from even innocent things IF it causes the brother to fall?
I say if drinking alcohol is ok, then let's replace that glass of water on the pulpit for a glass of the bubbly. We'll see how long you last as pastor, won't we.
This is one of the many questions on which Christians will never all agree. There are no prohibitions in Scripture on the casual use of alcohol. We are simply told not to be drunk. If you drink enough so that the alcohol controls what you say and do, then you've had too much and are drunk. I can't have alcohol because of the sugar.
I grew up in a household that used wine with the evening meals. At our church's potlucks you could drink wine, beer and liquor with the meals. Alcohol was permitted during some of the church’s activities. You could bring or purchase alcoholic beverages from our church’s concession booth. When we moved away to a new area, as a going away gift our pastor presented my father with a very old bottle of liquor.
I still drink wine with my evening meals. If one chooses not to drink that's fine. Nor, should one drink in front of people that are offend by it.
Deu 14:26 Use the silver to buy whatever you want: cattle, sheep, goats, wine, liquor-whatever you choose. Then you and your family will eat and enjoy yourselves there in the presence of the LORD your God.
Just curious about that church. What denomination?
none of this is accurate, Allan.
We DON'T know why Timothy did not drink- so that's the end of it. Conjecture cannot be used to condemn something. You have no point with that entire post.
And we don't know THAT he did not drink. Paul telling him to drink a little wine does not mean that he NEVER drank it no more than me telling you to post on baptistboard some to get your mind off of your troubles means that you NEVER post on baptistboard. It could easily have worked like this: You go swimming? Do that- it's good for you.
You drink a little? Do that- it's good for your stomach.
But to say that that passage even implies that Timothy was a teetotler is absurd.
And another thing. If this is all teetotlers have; this and a few passages out of proverbs- then they have nothing.
I was just looking at this passage the other day. God Himself told them to take the tithe harvest money and go and buy food and liquor and rejoice in his goodness. They were to, every once in a while- blow it out as it were to revel in the goodness of their God upon them.
God was pleased with this.
Good post Luke, and I agree with both of the above points.
I also believe that 'wine that maketh glad the heart of man' [Ps 104:15], and Christ's first miracle (at a wedding no less) of changing the water (of the word) to wine, is typical of Christ, as the Living Word, that gives joy, peace, and righteousness in the hearts of His children. By fulfilling the law and the prophets He changed the OT ministration of death into the NT ministration of righteousness (water to wine) [2 Cor 3], and we now 'bring forth out of our treasure things new and old', and this gospel, this 'good news', makes our hearts happy, as 'wine that maketh merry the heart of man'.
There is no passage of Scripture that state either Paul or Timothy refrained from alcoholic consumption. As Jews, they would have participated in jewish customs which included wine.
You are probably closer than you suppose. I think its an out growth of Wesley's or Weslian influence on american spirituality. The Midninteenth century saw a rise in the Holiness movement and commentators like Finney were well recieved. I believe this is when it became an accepted belief that drinking was generally wrong.
Paul to Timothy:
New International Version (©1984)
Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.
King James Bible
Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.
A person might use the KJ verse as an excuse to only drink wine.
Own evil desires
After seeing what happened to Noah. We really need to ask ourselves, does God really want us to drink more than we need or is it God given us over to our own evil desire.