who was up to baptists (1611) the true christian in the world?

Discussion in 'Baptist History' started by Baptistas, Feb 27, 2003.

  1. Baptistas

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    Forgive, that I badly write in English.
    My question: who was up to baptists (1611) the true christian in the world?
     
  2. Abiyah

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    Are you asking who were the true Christians
    before the King James Bible was introduced?

    Or did you intend to ask who were the true
    Christians before the Baptist church started?
     
  3. Baptistas

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    -- Who were the true Christians before the Baptist church started!
     
  4. Squire Robertsson

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    I believe my brother is asking who predated those we now call Baptists. Further, I believe he choose 1611 as an arbitary date not knowing much about Western European history.

    As a preliminary answer, all I can say is the Church Our Lord founded never completely died out. Regretfully solid documentary evidence for this opinion is rather sparse and some times contradictory. Prior to Guttenberg (and for a long period afterwards), any documents would be handwritten and therefore small in number. The Powers That Were (I am not naming names on purpose.) both secular and ecclesiastical burned any documents that even hinted of "heresy" (as they defined the word). So, the large percentage of the surviving documents come from the Establishment. An appropriate example would be this "what if":

    You are a researcher living 400+ years into the future. If the only documents you had to study came from the archives of KGB/RSS and the various offices of the Russian Orthodox Church, how would you describe the beliefs of the Evangelical Christian-Baptists? What methodology would you use to separate the truth from the misinterpertations and slander?

    S'Bogom, moy brat [​IMG]

    [ February 27, 2003, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: The Squire ]
     
  5. Baptistas

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    I always considered(counted), that baptists exist under this name since 1611 (from John Smith and Tomas Helwis). It can be necessary to name 1609?
    It is very interesting, who was the predecessors baptists? Whom from them it is possible to consider(count) as the christians (not considering Catilics and Ortodox)?
    The historical items of information about valdens, anabaptists and contain others very small and usually negative information...
    Yes, in KGB silly to learn(find out) the truth about christians in Russia, but even Credo there is not deformed. At ancestors baptists it turns out, that Credo usually contains eres of a rule(situation)...
    How here to understand?
     
  6. Squire Robertsson

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    I did not say it was impossible to learn from the KGB files. Just that a wise reseacher would want to read them with corrective lenses.

    Yes, there are traces of the NT church in the pre-1611 period. These traces are however widespread, and must needs read with great care. Many have taken the position that it is fair to consider any group that opposed the Papal system a proto-Baptist. Regretfully, on more in depth study, the placing many of the groups so considered is a matter of wishful thinking on the part of the "researcher".
     
  7. Baptistas

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    Thank. I read the book Caroll "Traces of blood". It turns out, that everyone, who was not were Catolic, were ancestors baptists... You do not have such book, where would be written, who and where was ancestors baptists?
     
  8. Bible-boy

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    Yes, we have Trail of Blood. An even better book that you may be interested in is The Reformers And Their Stepchildren, by Leonard Verduin.

    Leonard Verduin received an A.B. from Calvin College, a Th.B. from Calvin Seminary, and an A.M. from the University of Michigan. For twenty years he served the Christian Reformed Church as pastor of the Campus Chapel at the University of Michigan. He was awarded a Fulbright Research Grant in 1950 to study medieval protest movements in the Low Countries. He is the translator of the complete writings of Menno Simons.

    "This book by Verduin is a monumental blockbuster, and a must for every Baptist. This book proves the Baptists were in existence long before the Reformation. It rightly gives the credit for religious freedom to the Stepchildren (Baptists), and not to the Reformers. Verduin is not a Baptist, and in our estimation, makes this book even more valuable. This book should be read and reread by every Baptist pastor. It should be in the home of every Baptist Church member, and read and studied. It is a must own book! Sell your shirt and buy it."---E. L. Bynum
     
  9. Baptistas

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    Give me please reference to this book!!!!!!
     
  10. Squire Robertsson

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    I would concur with the recommendation of Reformers and their Stepchildren.
     
  11. Frogman

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    I would also be interested in a source for this book by Verduin. Is there an online source?

    Bro. Dallas
     
  12. Squire Robertsson

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    From Amazon, though I would think you could also check out CBD:
    Hope this helps.
     
  13. Baptistas

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    Thank!
    However I can not buy the books. The prices of these books simply fantastic! :confused:
    Very much to regret, that these books are not present in the Internet... :(
     
  14. Baptistas

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    Question:
    anabaptists, valdens, paulicans, novatians and others - ancestors baptists and whether it is possible them to consider(count) as the brothers baptists?
     
  15. Matt Black

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    Er...no, not exactly. I guess a lot of this comes from Carroll's 'Trail of Blood'? The trouble with Carroll is that he lumps together all kinds of pre-Helwys/ Smith non-Catholics as proto-Baptists, including such Gnostic heretics as the Cathars/ Albigenses. History is twisted here; there were some very good reasons why some of these were condemned as heretics - er, because they were.

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  16. Squire Robertsson

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    Like I said, the field of pre-15th century Baptist history is a mine field. It takes a careful scholarship and a discerning mind to navigate through it.
     
  17. J.R. Graves

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    It my opinion groups such as the Albigenses need a closer look. Many non-Landmark historians such as Peter Allix and Coynerbear have examined them and found them to be orthodox.
     
  18. Matt Black

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    Have you got a link to any of this? I read 'Montaillou' (sp?) by LeRoy Ladurie (sp? again!) when I was at school about the Cathars, and they seemed rather weird to me....

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  19. Frogman

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    Carroll makes plain the distinctives he considers indicative of a 'NT' church. It seems it is these distinctions which are in question. So, what would be acceptable to be considered as Baptist (NT) distinctives?

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  20. Matt Black

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    Interesting question, Dallas. What would you say the important points are? I would say:-

    1 God as sovereign in Three Persons; God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, being three Persons but one God, sovereign in creation, providence, revelation, redemption and final judgement.

    2 The divine inspiration of the Holy Scripture and its consequent entire trustworthiness and supreme authority in all matters of faith and conduct.

    3 The universal sinfulness and guilt of fallen mankind, making him subject to God's wrath and condemnation.

    4 The substitutionary sacrifice of the incarnate Son of God as the sole and all-sufficient ground of redemption from the guilt and power of sin, and from its everlasting consequences.

    5 The justification of the sinner solely by the grace of God through faith alone in Christ crucified and risen bodily from the dead.

    6 The illuminating, regenerating, indwelling, sanctifying and empowering work of God the Holy Spirit.

    7 The priesthood of all believers, who form the universal Church, the Body of which Christ is the Head and which is committed by His command to the proclamation of the Gospel throughout the world.

    8 The importance of the local church for spiritual growth, fellowship and service.

    9 The divine institution of the ordinances of baptism and the Lord's Supper.

    10 The expectation of the personal, visible return of the Lord Jesus Christ in power and glory.


    An alternative, IMO better view of Baptist history than the Landmark/ successionist view, can be found here

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     

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