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Who were the Primative Baptists- and what did they really believe?

Discussion in 'Baptist History' started by Heavy Metal Calvinist, Nov 29, 2005.

  1. Dragoon68

    Dragoon68 Active Member

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    Well, Bro. James Reed, I don't think that because I don't believe there's been that big of a change in the position of the churches involved. I think they stand just about the same as they always have give or take a few.

    Further, I'm not writing about just the Philippine work but all mission work by Primitive Baptists.

    I think the real issue is that some Primitive Baptist churches are actually completely against any mission work and will eventually find fault with any endeavor carried out by any sister church.
     
  2. Bro. James Reed

    Bro. James Reed New Member

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    You can think it all you want, but you would be wrong.

    We are against mission societies, which is undeniably what has been set up in the Philippines.

    Bro. Robert and others, I apologize for my part in turning this into a personal discussion. I just can not stand to see someone who does not even attend a Primitive Baptist church disparage the name and beliefs of us true Old Baptists.

    If "Dragoon" is agreeable, I think we should end this discussion for the sake of the other posters on the BB.
     
  3. Dragoon68

    Dragoon68 Active Member

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    So now you're saying that I "disparge the name and beliefs" of Primitive Baptists because I happen to be one that supports the mission work in Asia and Africa?

    Is it now your job to keep up with the my church attendance and report it to the world? Why mention my membership status or attendance record on this forum? How does that relate to the issue?

    If you want to debate the issue that's fine with me but if you want to keep throwing out the personal information in public arena that's not okay with me.

    In my original post I made no mention of you, your church, or any particular person by name. I gave my comments on how I see the problem. I stand by that whether you like it or not.
     
  4. Dragoon68

    Dragoon68 Active Member

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    Lot's of informed people do rightly deny that what's going on in the Philippines is anything wrong. They see it as the spreading of God's word to people who are hungry for it. It's not being handled by a missionary society composed of unqualified teachers and administrators nor is it being conducted for secular profit. It's God's work being performed by qualified ordained ministers and supported by Christian brothers and sisters from many Primitive Baptist churches.
     
  5. Dragoon68

    Dragoon68 Active Member

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    Here's a rather long extract from the famous - within Primitive Baptist circles - Black Rock Address of 1932 which is generally believed to be the starting point of the Primitive Baptist churches although many could rightly claim they were merely continuing in the proper practices of some of their predecessors all the way back to the first churches. Regardless, it doesn't get any more "old path" than this!

    That's the summary. Here's the two main points in detail:

    The negative attributes clearly defined herein don't fit the work or the workers in the Philippines or any other country in Asia or Africa where it's being pursued.

    There is no equality between the present day mission work of the Primitive Baptist churches in Asia and Africa and the concern expressed by the good brothers and sisters who penned this address. In fact, the positive attributes of "good" mission work described herein more correctly describe that work.

    The problem that exists today is the result of some people having taken parts of this position and grossly extrapolated them to fit the true mission work of Primitive Baptist churches - especially that in the Philippines - and who continue to refuse to evaluate it honestly for what it is. Any Primitive Baptist church that gets involved in mission work is promptly labeled a Missionary Baptist church regardless that the first Primitive Baptist churches clearly supported the Lord's command to "Go into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." as is plainly revealed in the introduction of the Black Rock address. Some Primitive Baptist preachers today deny the relevance of this command because they've come to associate any mission work as being out of order. The terms heresy and liberalism are quickly applied to any who seek to set the record straight.
     
  6. Bro. James Reed

    Bro. James Reed New Member

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    Again, you falsely believe that those on "our side" are against preaching God's word to all of His children, where ever they may be.

    I don't really know why you seem to keep going back to this when I have stated that this is not the case.

    Also, I spent several years in the camp approving of the Philippine work and the ministers doing that work. The problem began to arise when a particular person set himself up as the missionary board, whether you want to call it that or not, and has said, and I have heard him say it, that he is responsible for overseeing the churches, 70+ at the time, in the Philippines. He has also clearly demonstrated in the pamphlets his corporation sends out, as well as his preaching tours to the U.S., that he holds control, or at least believes he does, of the ministers that have been ordained in the Philippines.

    This has nothing whatever to do with whether it is right or wrong to be in the Philippines, and elsewhere, preaching the gospel. It has everything to do with the mess that has been created since the beginning of this once good work.

    It also has to do with the "Pope of the Philippines", who shall remain nameless, telling "his ministers", as he calls them, and I've heard him say it, to go to other demoninations for support and to keep it quiet from the PBs back home.

    Aside from this biggest issue, the same ministers that are in favor of the goings on, as they are, in the Philippines are typically the same ones who preach tithing as a new testament command, and a fully-salaried ministry as a new testament command, and using notes/pre-written sermons in the pulpit, and teaching that all the elect will hear the gospel, and saying that time salvation does not exist, etc, etc, etc.

    Now, albeit not every minister who is in line with this camp holds to everything I just mentioned above, but you would be hard pressed to find one minister in "our camp", I say that as delicately as possible because I don't like the way it sounds, who is holding to anyone of the positions I mentioned above.

    It also seems to be quite popular right now among the younger ministers in that camp to allow practicing adulterers into the church membership. Mark my words, the way things are going, they will soon be attempting to ordain women in the church.

    Anyhow, I would appreciate it if you would not state that we are against spreading the gospel because that just isn't true. We are against the way it is currently being done in the Philippines, but we are not against the original purpose of the work.

    I can not comment on the Indian or African efforts because I am not all that familiar with them.
     
  7. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Dragoon68:

    The Scriptural principle when a minister goes out in the field in obedience to the command to 'go' is that he is accountable to the God who sent him out.
    If any man, Primitive Baptist or otherwise, feels that God is calling him out to serve somewhere then he is to pack up and go immediately, fully depending on God whom he serves to prepare the way for him, and to supply all his needs.
    I am almost sure you will say yes to this principle as the Scriptural way.
    I am almost sure you will say no to the practice of most missionary Baptists of first making sure they have pledges of support from individuals and/or churches and/or mission boards before they go out.
    Now, when somebody who I believe have preached in his church dependence on the Lord feels he has been directed to go to the Philippines, and among other preparations he does is to set up a website for purposes of receiving donations, then he not only turned his back on a principle he has probably preached himself, he has also started on the road to further compromise.
    There were four Filipino preachers who came here to the States. None of these I have ever met until they came here.
    Of thouse four, two have since separated from him.
    One of those two states that the reason he did so was because he felt that the 'papacy' of the Roman Catholic church has appeared in the Primitive Baptist churches in the form of a one-man mission board and director.
    The other one separated himself from his 'network' because of the doctrine of 'tithing' which is now being taught among some Primitive Baptist churches in the Philippines, and justified as 'non-essential' doctrine by American preachers who do not teach tithing in their own churches !
    Now, I do not know how true all these charges are, notwithstanding the fact that those two Filipino ministers are ready to testify to the anomalies of the PB work in the Philippines, but, like I said in my previous post, there is just too much smoke there can only be fire, and in that case the prudent way is to do what the Bible says: abstain from all appearances of evil.
     
  8. Dragoon68

    Dragoon68 Active Member

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    I don't claim they're against preaching the word of God. I claim many are against mission work of most every type. I've heard that position from the mouths of several ministers around here when I discussed the subject with them. Many don't believe the Lord's command applies to us today. They believe that was fulfilled by the apostles. To justify their position they've attacked the work in the Philippines and those who support it. They've said the work should spring up from within the Filipinos. They've said that a man who's called to preach most provide for his own way. They've said the Philippine work is all about money. I've heard those things with my own ears and challenged it all from the very beginning.

    It is worthwhile to note that those churches which have supported the Philippine work also have supported other mission work in Asia and Africa. Many of their ministers have gone there to preach and came back with good reports of what they witnessed. Conversely, those churches which have been critical of the Philippine work have not supported any mission work. They've sent no one to these foreign lands. There are probably exceptions but this is the general pattern. The deeds thereby match the words and reflect the position of the churches.
     
  9. Dragoon68

    Dragoon68 Active Member

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    That, to me, is a very slanderous label to apply to a Primitive Baptist minister who's devoted so much of his life to preaching the word of God in the Philippines and helping the people there establish churches of proper order. I'm sure "his" is a term used in love because of his personal nurturing relationship with them and not one that supplants the fact that all ministers are, or should be, ministers of God.
     
  10. Dragoon68

    Dragoon68 Active Member

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    You are also aware of how the scriptures prescribe that discipline should be handled and the extra care to be given when it involves a minister. If then, you are not certain of the truth of the charges as you so state, then perhaps you should not make the charges. If you are certain, then perhaps you and the others who are certain should present those charges along with the proof that you have attempted to resolve the matter with the minister involved.

    Also, the scripture you quote does not imply that we should run from every problem within the church or the work of our churches. Perhaps instead more active involvement would be appropriate to seek correction of a problem, if that be the case, recognizing full well that all men are fallible and bound to make some mistakes even as they seek to do the Lord's work.

    I've heard far too many ministers around here eagerly jump on the bandwagon of criticism regarding the Philippine mission work. I still clearly remember a e-mail received from one minister titled "Look At This!" in which he'd found a morsel of alleged wrong doing he couldn't wait to spread around. It's a disease that spread rapidly among the church in the name of preserving the purity of the church.
     
  11. Dragoon68

    Dragoon68 Active Member

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    These are good points. Yes, I agree in principal with what you've written. In fact, I believe this is generally true about life. We should follow the calling God gives us with the faith that He will provide the means necessary for us to accomplish it. Yet at the same time I believe we should endeavor to prepare for whatever it is that we care called to do by study, practice, and means required all along the way looking the God for the faith to continue. I see no conflict with this principle through a minister seeking the help of fellow Christian brothers and sisters either in prayers, participation, or tangible monetary support needed to sustain the effort. The timing of such requests for help are less important than the reason or intents behind them.

    I'm not aware of any hard evidence that suggests anything being done in the Philippine mission work is contrary to these principles.
     
  12. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp New Member

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    Brother Vaughn,

    I don't know; the topic is who were the Primitive Baptists and what did they really believe. Reading through these posts I think these men have given us a first class example of the ridiculous theology and coniving practices on which the cult of Hardshellism rests.

    Though I would certainly not endorse all, or even most, of what has been done in the name of "missions" - I will certainly take my stand as a missionary Baptist (in the good and pure sense of the term) as over against this monstrous perversion of the blessed gospel of my Lord Jesus Christ.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  13. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Brother Vaughn,

    I don't know; the topic is who were the Primitive Baptists and what did they really believe. Reading through these posts I think these men have given us a first class example of the ridiculous theology and coniving practices on which the cult of Hardshellism rests.

    Though I would certainly not endorse all, or even most, of what has been done in the name of "missions" - I will certainly take my stand as a missionary Baptist (in the good and pure sense of the term) as over against this monstrous perversion of the blessed gospel of my Lord Jesus Christ.

    Mark Osgatharp
    </font>[/QUOTE]Okay, Mark Osgatharp. Get us back on topic.
    Where is the monstrous gospel perversion of the blessed gospel of your Lord Jesus Christ ?

    Educate this poor lost perverted soul on where in the Bible does it say that unless one goes out and preaches the gospel souls will remain eternally lost and the sacrifice of Christ on the cross is worth nothing without the humble, willing, self-sacrificing efforts of missionaries who preach one thing and do another ?
     
  14. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp New Member

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    Pinoybaptist,

    I said you guys were doing a good job of exposing the topic at hand. For me to answer your question would not really been on topic and would actually be a doctrinal, rather than historical, discussion.

    But if the moderators will indulge me a bit, here are the Scriptures to answer your question:

    "As the Father hath sent me even so send I you. Whosesoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them and whoesoever sins ye retain they are retained."

    "Go ye therefore and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; he that believeth not shall be damned."

    "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

    "He that heareth my words and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life."

    "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ. For it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believeth, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, the just shall live by faith."

    "How shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall the believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? and how shall they preach except they be sent?

    As it is written, how beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things."

    "It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."

    "I become all things to all men that I might by all means save some."

    "Who then is Paul, and who is Appollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?"

    "That we should be to the praise of his glory who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise."

    "In hope of eternal life which, that cannot lie, promised before the world began, but hath in due times manifested his word through preaching."

    "Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved."

    "Unto whom it was revealed that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven."

    "Being born again, not of corruptible seed but of incorruptible, by the word of God which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass and the glory of man as the flower of the grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away; but the word of the Lord endureth forever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you."

    "Do not err by beloved brethren; Every good gift and every perfect gift cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variablness, neither shadow of turning. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth."

    "Because that for his name's sake they went forth, taking nothing of the Gentiles. We therefore ought to receive such, that we might be fellowhelpers of the truth."

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  15. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Dragoon68 said:
    I've heard that before. From myself, before I withdrew any association or support in principle for the work in the Philippines.
    And then I heard the same argument from a church member who vehemently opposed my stand.

    So, this person pulls out his entire family from the States, sells most of his property, and goes to the Philippines, because he feels he has a calling to 'preach the gospel' there ?

    Big deal. If he has truly been called, then he owes it to his Lord and Master to forsake all. Why should we fellow redeemed sinners hold anyone who goes out in response to the Master's call in higher regard than the Son of God who left all to obey His Father's call and save His people from their sins ?

    So Paul was beheaded because he spent his lifetime teaching the gospel ? Big deal !

    So, Peter was crucified upside down because he went out to preach the gospel to the nations ?
    Big deal !

    So, all the other apostles suffered and died because of the gospe ? Big deal !

    So, the missionary Baptists left home and hearth to suffer and die in other lands ? Big deal !

    So, Foxe's Book of Martrys has stories of martyrs who suffered and died for the truth of the gospel ?

    So what. Big deal !

    Well, the Son of God left His spotless, heavenly home, limited himself in the body of a slave, suffered and bled and died on the cross, in order to fulfill His Father's desire that some among the fallen race of Adam should be redeemed and dwell in heaven with the great Three-in-One where they had no right to be save for the inifinite mercy of God.

    Now, that is THE Big Deal !
     
  16. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    And where is the Scripture that we sinful, despicable, cultic Primitive Baptists are supposed to have corrupted, in your wise estimation ?
     
  17. Dragoon68

    Dragoon68 Active Member

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    Thanks for your comments Mark Osgatharp.

    I love the Primitive Baptist doctrine but if using its name comes to mean standing against mission work then I'll stop using it.


    That verse is even quoted in the Black Rock address I previously posted supporting the position that the original Primitive Baptists did believe in mission work as having been commanded by the Lord himself.

    Never the less, some Primitive Baptists today, claiming they hold to the "old paths", deny the relevance of this scripture claiming it applied only to the apostles. They say they support mission work - just not missions boards - but their words and deeds don't match up with that claim. In fact, the mere mention of the word "mission" among them normally begets a near tantrum putting down the Philippine mission work, accusations of liberalism and heresy, implications of not being a "true" Primitive Baptist, mentions of "unscriptural" conduct, being Missionary Baptist rather than Primitive Baptist, etc.
     
  18. Dragoon68

    Dragoon68 Active Member

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    And where is the Scripture that we sinful, despicable, cultic Primitive Baptists are supposed to have corrupted, in your wise estimation ? </font>[/QUOTE]I didn't read that Mark Osgatharp was claiming we, as a church, have an overall corrupted doctrine. I read that he was claiming some of the discussion on the matter of missions was corrupted. He also pointed out that the discussion focused on historical basis for the doctrine verses scriptual basis.
     
  19. Bro. James Reed

    Bro. James Reed New Member

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    From my observation, it appears as though you, and others, love a perversion of the Primitive Baptist doctrine.

    The day you, and others, stop using the name Primitive Baptist, I, and many others, will jump for joy!

    Btw, "mission" is not a biblical word. I am against what 99.999999% of the people who use that word use it for. Missions, in the classic sense, I am definitely against.

    I am very much in favor of spreading the gospel to all who would hear it. If that is what you mean by missions, then I'll say I endorse the idea, as will all other sound Old Baptists. Missions, as spoken of in the Black rock address, and other places, is what we are against.

    Besides, this is the pinnacle issue of the pyramid of liberal theology being brought into the church. Even if this issue was settled, there are still other heretical issues left to be settled.

    As for a preacher being led by God, or a board, or his own will, to a place to preach the gospel, I can only give you an anecdote.

    My pastor and I went on a trip to another state a few weeks ago. We went to church on Saturday and Sunday while we were there. The church which we visited paid my pastor some money to help him on his journey, since God had led him to go to their church and preach. That is biblical support for an "evangelist" tyoe of preaching. You go where God leads and depend on Him to lead the church He is sending you to take care of you.

    Had our pastor decided that he wanted to go to the other state to preach, but he first came to our church and said we needed to give him money so he could go to the other state to preach, that is not scripturally sound.

    The people hearing the preaching have the responsibility to help the preacher on his journey to and from them.

    The Philippine churches have the responsibility to help the ministers who preach for them.

    It would be no different than if our church, or our pastor, wrote to the Philippine churches for money so we could be sustained. It might be understandable if it was a one time thing in helping a struggling church which had faced some calamity, such as the blow felt by the churches here after the hurricanes, but the support from those in the U.S. is an ongoing thing designed to permanently sustain those many churches and preachers overseas, as it has for the last 10 or so years. That is not scriptural.

    [ January 02, 2006, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: Bro. James Reed ]
     
  20. Dragoon68

    Dragoon68 Active Member

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    You're blowing more smoke to further confuse the issues! What was that Pinoybaptist wrote about smoke and fire?

    The Primitive Baptist ministers I know that participate in mission work don't in the least fit the criteria you suggested.

    In some cases they are salaried but they do not consider it a scriptural command. Rather, they consider it a blessing that permits them to give their full time work to the church. They have no other means of support other than that which their churches voluntarily choose to provide them which is merely enough for normal subsistence. That seems to be a problem for others who have a full time job and preach part time.

    In some cases, on some occasions, notes are used by some ministers. There's no scriptural command not to do so even though far and away none of the ministers I know need or use notes. They rely on the Holy Spirit for their prudent study, preparation, and effective delivery. If they felt notes might be of help to them on some occasion I'm sure they'd use them not worrying about some man-made prohibition against them. That seems to a problem for others who can't preach a coherent sermon either with or without notes.

    No Primitive Baptist minister I know condones sexual impropriety of any kind in the church. Further none have any even mentioned the idea of ordaining women as ministers or deacons. That kind of reference is nothing but a scare tactic to create an association between truly unscriptural conduct and other matters with which you don't agree.
     
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