Who were the Waldenesians?

Discussion in 'Baptist History' started by dianetavegia, Sep 3, 2003.

  1. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia
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    Another poster has mentioned this group not recognizing Easter. The only mention I found of them on the internet (didn't search THAT hard) was on an off the wall page and it said the Catholics and Protestants killed them all hundreds of years ago. It didn't explain their beliefs tho.

    Who were the Waldensians and were they Baptist?

    Diane
     
  2. Doubting Thomas

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    Based on what I'm read, just about every Protestant denomination and pseudo-Christian cult claims them as their spiritual forebears. Ok, that's an exaggeration, but not much :D . I believe they're a group of separatist Christians who lived in the Alpine Valleys dating from around the 11th or 12th centuries--some suggest even earlier. Historians disagree with each other about what they specifically believed, but in general their beliefs would lie within the pale of orthodox Christianity.
     
  3. mioque

    mioque
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    Waldenses or Waldensians, Protestant religious group of medieval origin, called in French Vaudois.
    They originated in the late 12th cent. as the Poor Men of Lyons, a band organized by Peter Waldo, a wealthy merchant of Lyons, who gave away his property (c.1176) and went about preaching apostolic poverty as the way to perfection. Being laymen, they were forbidden to preach. They went to Rome, where Pope Alexander III blessed their life but forbade preaching (1179) without authorization from the local clergy. They disobeyed and began to teach unorthodox doctrines; they were formally declared heretics by Pope Lucius III in 1184 and by the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215. In 1211 more than 80 were burned as heretics at Strasbourg, beginning several centuries of persecution.

    The Waldenses proclaimed the Bible as the sole rule of life and faith. They rejected the papacy, purgatory, indulgences, and the mass, and laid great stress on gospel simplicity. Worship services consisted of readings from the Bible, the Lord’s Prayer, and sermons, which they believed could be preached by all Christians as depositaries of the Holy Spirit. Their distinctive pre-Reformation doctrines are set forth in the Waldensian Catechism (c.1489). They had contact with other similar groups, especially the Humiliati.    

    The Waldenses were most successful in Dauphiné and Piedmont and had permanent communities in the Cottian Alps SW of Turin. In 1487 at the instance of Pope Innocent VIII a persecution overwhelmed the Dauphiné Waldenses, but those in Piedmont defended themselves successfully. In 1532 they met with German and Swiss Protestants and ultimately adapted their beliefs to those of the Reformed Church. In 1655 the French and Charles Emmanuel II of Savoy began a campaign against them. Oliver Cromwell sent a mission of protest; that occasion also prompted John Milton’s famous poem on the Waldenses. At the time of the revocation of the Edict of Nantes (1685), the Waldensian leader, Henri Arnaud, led a band into Switzerland; he later led them back to their valleys.    

    After the French Revolution the Waldenses of Piedmont were assured liberty of conscience, and in 1848, King Charles Albert of Savoy granted them full religious and civil rights. A group of Waldensians settled in the United States at Valdese, N.C. The Waldensian Church is included in the Alliance of Reformed Churches of the Presbyterian Order. The principal Waldensian writer was Arnaud.    


    http://www.bartleby.com/65/wa/Waldense.html
     
  4. tyndale1946

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    Here is a link to their Articles of Faith or Confession from 1120 and 1544... Compare them with Baptist beliefs today!... Just FYI!... Brother Glen [​IMG]

    http://pb.org/articles/walden.html
     
  5. donnA

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    There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of information about them on the internet,a lot of pages, same information, almost nothing as to exactly what their beliefs were. A few still exsist today, some in Italy and even fewer in Uraguay, they are considered a denomination.
    How this group started is disputable, and noone knows for sure.

    Here is just a little of what I found from differernt sites.
    ". . . Peter Waldo . . . is sometimes thought to have founded the Waldensian church. . . In 1180, he helped to form a church . . . He abandoned his merchant vocation, dispersed all his material goods to the poor, and assumed the role of a public teacher. . . He was bitterly opposed by the authorities of his day, but this only served to multiply the number of his followers. The first established churches were in France. Later churches were established in Lombardy [Northern Italy, on the south side of the Alps], and from there, they spread to every province of Europe."

    ". . . They adopted, as the code of their moral discipline, the Sermon of Christ on the Mount, which they interpreted and explained in the most rigorous and literal manner, and of consequence prohibiting and condemning in their society all wars, and suits of law, all attempts to the acquisition of wealth, the infliction of capital punishments, self-defense against unjust violence, and oaths of all kinds."


    The Waldensians were not wholly orthodox by Protestant standards, however. In their early days they held to a doctrine of good works, placing great emphasis on poverty and celibacy. tey accepted women as preachers, citing the example of Anna the prophetess, and the command that the older women should teach the younger. They kept the feasts of teh Virigin Mary, although they did not put as much emphasis on her as did the mainstream chruch. They developed an organizational hierarchy of deacons, priests,and bishops similar to that in Catholicsim.


    Waldensians still exist today, but their beliefs are based mostly upon Calvinism than the older beliefs of their ancestors.


    Their second error is that all vices and sins are in the church, and that they alone live righteously.
    That scarcely anyone in the church, but themselves, preserves the evangelical doctrine.
    That they are the true poor in spirit, and suffer persecution for righteousness and faith.
    That they are the Church of Jesus Christ.
    That the Church of Rome is the Harlot in the Apocalypse, on account of its superfluous decoration which the Eastern Church does not regard.
    That they despise all the statutes of the Church, because they are heavy and numerous.
    That the Pope is the head of all errors.
    That the Prelates are Scribes; and the Monks, Pharisees.
    That the Pope and all Bishops, are homicides on account of wars.
    That we are not to obey Prelates; but only God.
    That no one is greater than another in the church. Matt. 23. "All of you are brethren."
    That no one ought to bow the knee before a priest. Rev. ii. where the Angel says tojohn "See thou do it not."
    That tithes are not to be given, because first fruits were not given to the church.
    That the clergy ought not to have possessions; Dent. xviii. "The Priests and all the tribe of Levi, shall not have part and inheritance with the people of Israel, because they eat the sacrifices, and they shall receive nothing else."
    That the clergy, and monks, ought not to have Prebends.
    That the Bishops and Abbots ought not to have royal rights.
    That the land, and the people, are not to be divided into parts.
    That it is a bad thing to found and endow churches and monasteries.
    That wills are not to be made in favor of Churches-also, that no one ought to be a tenant of the church-also, they condemn all the clergy for idleness, saying that they ought to work with their hands as the Apostles did-also, they reprobate titles of dignity such as Pope, Bishops, etc.-also, that no one is to be forced into belief-also, that they make no account of all ecclesiastical offices-also, that they care nothing for ecclesiastical privileges-also, they despise the immunity of the Church and of ecclesiastical persons and things-also, they condemn Councils, Synods, and Assemblies-also, they say that all parochial rights are invention-also, they say that monastic rules are the traditions of the Pharisees.
    Secondly, they condemn all the Sacraments of the Church; in the first place, as to baptism, they say that the Catechism is nothing - also, that the ablution which is given to infants profits nothing....

    Also, they condemn the sacrament of Marriage, saying that married persons sin mortally if they come together without the hope of offspring-also, they disregard compaternity-also

    Still looking.
     
  6. J.R. Graves

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    Check out:

    "The Waldenses Were Independent Baptists" by Thomas Williamson

    At: http://members.aol.com/libcfl2/walden.htm

    Chapters Include:

    CHAPTER ONE . . . . . . . . Mode of Baptism - Did the Waldenses Immerse?

    CHAPTER TWO . . . . . . . Infant Baptism - Were the Waldenses Pedobaptists?

    CHAPTER THREE . . . . . Waldensian Views on Transubstantiation and Other Roman Catholic Distinctives

    CHAPTER FOUR . . . . . . Waldensian Views on Soteriology

    CHAPTER FIVE . . . . . . . Waldensian Views on the Trinity

    CHAPTER SIX . . . . . . . . Waldensian Views on Calvinism

    CHAPTER SEVEN . . . . . Waldensian Views on Separation

    CHAPTER EIGHT . . . . . Waldensian Church Government and Standards for Church Membership

    CHAPTER NINE . . . . . . Were the Waldenses Manichaeans?

    CHAPTER TEN . . . . . . . When and Why Did the Waldenses Cease to be Baptists?

    CHAPTER ELEVEN . . . . Conclusion: Baptists Existed Prior to the Reformation, and are Not Protestants

    BIBLIOGRAPHY
     
  7. donnA

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    I'll check out your site, I did see several places where they were said to be baptists.
     
  8. Surfer5

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    Hi. The Waldensians were not started by Peter Waldo. This is Catholic disinformation to make the Waldensians appear to have started in the 1100s and 1200s, when we know that they had been in existence prior to the 8th century. The reason information about them is hard to find is because most of the material about them is written in French, Italian, German and Latin. They lived in the area of the Alps that is on the border of Switzerland, Italy and France. They went back and forth depending on which troops of the Pope were persecuting them for that month.

    They are very despised by the Catholic leaders, because they come from within the original jurisdiction of the Roman See, where the Bishop of Rome had some jurisdiction. (only voluntary jurisdiction; there was only "influence" that the bishop of Rome could have. Even by 380 in Rome, the Bishop of Rome had great trouble convincing others to pay attention to him). Additionally they had their own Bibles, which proves that it was groups like the Waldensians that are responsible for the transmission of the true Biblical texts and not the false texts of the Roman Catholic Church.

    They are called Waldensians, Waldenses and Vaudois. Peter Waldo was a person in the French city of Lyon that actually did help them, but by the time he came along, the Waldensians had been defying Rome for 3 or 4 centuries.

    One of the better sources is the 2 Volume set by Muston. The Waldensians were Protestants before the label of "protestants" existed.

    Groups that have been faithfull to the Bible and its simple teachings have been called all sorts of things by the Catholic Church. By individually naming each geographic group that disagrees with the Catholic position, it makes it appear as though there are many groups that believe many things, instead of mainly Protestant groups that are united in most of their core beliefs and also united against the Teachings of Rome. Both Baptists and Waldensians would be considered Protestants. The Waldensians held to their own views long before Calvin came on the scene. When the Calvinists finally talked with the Waldensians, the waldensians and calvinists realized that both of them believed most of what the other group believed. The Bible translation of the Waldensians formed the basis for one of the First Protestant Translations of the Bible based on the Greek Textus Receptus. It was accomplished by Olivetain, a relative of Calvin. In the preface to this edition, Olivetain explicitly credits the Waldensians for help and use of their Bible in the translation project.
     
  9. mioque

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    "The Waldensians were not started by Peter Waldo. This is Catholic disinformation to make the Waldensians appear to have started in the 1100s and 1200s, when we know that they had been in existence prior to the 8th century."
    :rolleyes: remarks like these break a church historians heart [​IMG]

    "The reason information about them is hard to find is because most of the material about them is written in French, Italian, German and Latin."
    I've had extensive lessons in 3 of those, but for an introduction to the subject you don't need them. The following book; the Waldensian Dissent Persecution and Survival c.1170- c.1570 by Gabriel Audisio, published by Cambridge University Press, will do nicely as an introduction to the subject
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0521559847/qid%3D1015554092/sr%3D1-8/ref%3Dsr%5F1%5F8/102-4941083-8580132

    The following page from the book is probably worth reading because of the nature of some of the responses on this thread.
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0521559847/ref=lib_dp_TT01/102-4941083-8580132?v=glance&s=books&vi=reader&img=6#reader-link

    The Waldenses: Rejections of Holy Church in Medieval Europe, by Euan Cameron, is also a good introduction to the subject.
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0631224971/ref=pd_bxgy_text_1/102-4941083-8580132?v=glance&s=books&st=*

    And no I did not write that little review of the book posted on amazon.
    [​IMG]
     
  10. WonderingOne

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    Some of them did indeed settle here in North Carolina. They had great success here as bakers. Up until just a few years ago, you could still buy their Sunbeam bread in all the grocery stores here, and it was by far the most popular brand of bread around.
     
  11. Ben W

    Ben W
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    They also kept the Sabbath. Many books on this and the Waldenses in gereal are found in the Bible Sabbath Association Library. All available for purchase.

    http://www.biblesabbath.org/
     
  12. mark

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    Thanks for all the great information and links. I taught on the Waldenses at church this weekend.
     

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