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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Gold Dragon, Jun 5, 2010.
I'm studying Revelation in my bible study group and was curious about the opinions on BB.
Quite clearly referring to Romish influence, from the church of Rome or the entirety of the Roman Empire. The overwhelming consensus among Bible believers has historically been the RCC.
Just to clarify, if you had that option, would you have voted Rome/Roman Empire and Roman Catholic Church? Or is your vote just for Rome/Roman Empire?
I guess I should have made that one of the options.
NKJV Revelation 17
5 And on her forehead a name was written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.
15 Then he said to me, "The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues.
16 "And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire.
17 "For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.
18 And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.
Whatever she is (imagery of a city), she will be ruling over the earth at the time of Revelation 17 and be guilty of the blood of true saints and martyrs.
I don't believe she is the the Church of Rome per se but they will probably be involved as well as the other elements of professing Christendom along with the other major world religions. The old Roman "Pantheon of gods" revived but this time with an acceptable view of Jesus Christ (a Christ who is not God come in the flesh - 1 John 4:2-3).
Probably the visible manifestation of the one-world "government" which has been developing over the centuries.
An appeasing, wide scope, encompassing all peoples (except true believers) blend of political, religious, cultural and philosophical components at the time of the end whose complete organization and manifestation we have yet to witness.
Those who control her will eventually turn on her and destroy her fulfilling the will of God.
Those whom she had ruled over will then relinquish their sovereignty to the beast (presumably the antichrist).
My opinion of course.
"She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you greetings . . . ." Peter wrote this from Rome, which is a strong indicator that "Babylon" in N.T. times was a Christian expression for the ancient city of Rome.
Indeed, it seems that Rome (not just the RCC) may well be the geographic headquarters site of this ten-headed monster (a "new" United Nations).
Others believe an actual Babylon (Iraq) rebuilt (one of Sadam's dreams).
I suppose my overall take of Revelation conforms to the historical method as much as anything. The immediate fulfillment of the Harlot is apostate Judiasm, which isn't listed as an option in the poll.
You're right- I wasn't clear. I believe it to refer to the Roman Empire, (My vote), though in some circles the RCC is believed to be what's referred to.
This is difficult. I have studied this myself for many years and am not quite decided what Babylon is.
A great book concerning this subject is The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop which can be found online. This book shows that all the false religions in the world today originated in ancient Babylon (the Mother of Harlots).
Here is a good site only because it shows the illustrations which are very important.
This book is not that long and a good read. The symbols are very important, you can see them in the Catholic church or even Islam today.
Here is one example, a coin issued by the Catholic church that shows the RCC as a woman with a golden cup in her hand. Notice the seven horns on her head as well.
Old Covenant Israel.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Everyone agrees that the book of Revelation predicts the fall of Babylon; what they do not agree upon is the identity of Babylon. Some say it is Rome, Roman Catholicism, a modern day world-wide church, or apostate Christianity as a whole. One thing is certain, the interpretation of Revelation and thus much of the Bible, hinges upon who Babylon is or was.[/FONT]In Revelation the coming of Christ, the New Creation, judgment and resurrection are associated with the fall of Babylon. To mistakenly identify Babylon is to incorrectly interpret these issues. Whatever one makes Babylon to be these issues are inextricably linked with her fall! Can we identify Babylon? Yes indeed!
Revelation 16:6; 17:1-6; 18:20, 24 tell us that Babylon was drunk with the blood of the prophets. This is a critical point! The term "the prophets" appears 88 times in the New Testament. The overwhelmingly normal usage of the term refers to Old Testament prophets.
Now the city of Rome, the Roman Catholic church, apostate Christianity, nor any modern world-wide church ever persecuted Old Testament prophets! But Babylon of Revelation did, therefore none of these can be identified as Babylon; it is just that simple! What city persecuted the Old Testament prophets and filled the Cup of her Sin by so doing? It was Jerusalem...................................
....it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem. Lu 13:33
This is not so, Jesus himself (who was a prophet) was crucified by Rome.
Paul was executed by the Romans, most believe he was beheaded. He gave prophesy in the NT.
It is also believed that Peter was put to death by the Romans, he was a prophet as well.
Andrew is believed to have been crucified, which was a Roman execution.
So, surely more prophets died at the hands of Jerusalem, and you may be correct. But prophets died at the hands of Rome as well.
Winman, show me even one place where the Spirit lays the blame on the Romans. Here's who the Comforter SQUARELY convicts of the crime. Take note, in all these examples given, of the redundancy of the message from the Comforter to the Jews; YOU KILLED HIM, BUT GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD. :
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and spake forth unto them, saying, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and give ear unto my words.
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as ye yourselves know;
23 him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay:
24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pangs of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly, that God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified.40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation.
12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this man? or why fasten ye your eyes on us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made him to walk?
13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him.14 But ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted unto you,
15 and killed the Prince of life; whom God raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
23 And it shall be, that every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.
8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders,
9 if we this day are examined concerning a good deed done to an impotent man, by what means this man is made whole;
10 be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even in him doth this man stand here before you whole.
27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest asked them,
28 saying, We strictly charged you not to teach in this name: and behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and intend to bring this man`s blood upon us.
29 But Peter and the apostles answered and said, We must obey God rather than men.
30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew, hanging him on a tree.
31 Him did God exalt with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, to give repentance to Israel, and remission of sins.
32 And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
8 And Stephen, full of grace and power, wrought great wonders and signs among the people.
9 But there arose certain of them that were of the synagogue called the synagogue of the Libertines, and of the Cyrenians, and of the Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and Asia, disputing with Stephen.
10 And they were not able to withstand the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spake.
15 And all that sat in the council, fastening their eyes on him, saw his face as it had been the face of an angel.
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets did not your fathers persecute? and they killed them that showed before of the coming of the Righteous One; of whom ye have now become betrayers and murderers;
53 ye who received the law as it was ordained by angels, and kept it not.
55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God. Acts 7
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the country of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom also they slew, hanging him on a tree.
40 Him God raised up the third day, and gave him to be made manifest,
41 not to all the people, but unto witnesses that were chosen before of God, even to us, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he charged us to preach unto the people, and to testify that this is he who is ordained of God to be the Judge of the living and the dead.
16 And Paul stood up, and beckoning with the hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, hearken:
27 For they that dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath, fulfilled them by condemning him.
28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet asked they of Pilate that he should be slain.
29 And when they had fulfilled all things that were written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a tomb.
30 But God raised him from the dead:
31 and he was seen for many days of them that came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses unto the people.[/QUOTE]
Similar Thread on SharperIron
Here is a link to a similar thread on SharperIron:
Hislop's The Two Babylons
Babylon is an ancient city in Babil Province, Iraq, about 55 miles south of Baghdad between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. The word babili means "gateway of the god" in ancient Chaldean, but, as a sort of play on words in the Old Testament, it means "confusion."
In my opinion, Babylon means Babylon. It will be the center of both the one world religion and the one world government during the Great Tribulation. Both will be the result of and result in great confusion.
"Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."
If God is here telling 'MY People" to come out of this terrible Babylon, then this helps us infer what she is.
False religion. Greater in scope than being limited to Rome, or Jerusalem, or anyone place/denomination, etc. Apparently, some, if not many, of God's people do populate, Catholic, Lutheran, Presbyterian, etc., 'institutions' which can be collectively referred to as 'false religion.'
The symbiosis evidenced (as a classic example) of the Romish or Popish 'church' (Holy Roman Catholic Empire) typifies what we see in Revelation - and similar examples are found in other false religions. 'The State' benefits by the 'offerings' and 'loyalties' (coerced or voluntary), and 'control' of the populace that the 'church' offers - and the 'church' benefits by the same wealth, control, etc., while also being offered 'protection' and official exclusive 'sanction' by the State.
Very good post, Eagle.
In Revelation 13 we see two beasts, one from the sea and one from the land. I believe it is telling us about Satan's two-pronged attack on God's religion. The beast from the sea is the civil side of the attack, while the beast from the land is the ecclesiastic side.
Consider that the beast from the sea is really an amalgamation of the 4 beasts of Daniel 7. Those four beasts are Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome typified by a lion with eagles wings, a bear, a leopard with 4 wings and 4 heads, and a terrible beast with iron teeth and 10 horns. These beasts arose from the great sea as the four winds strove upon it. The beast from the sea in Revelation 13 has the mouth of a lion, the body of a leopard, and the feet of a bear. It also has 7 heads (summation of the heads of the 4 beasts of Daniel 7) and 10 horns (same as 4th beast/Rome), and upon its horns 10 crowns. This beast gets its power from the dragon (Satan). This beast continues 42 months, or 3 and a half years. There's a lot of similarities between this and Daniel 7. It really looks like God is describing the world power that is opposed to Him and His religion in a conglomerated sense. This is the devil's civil arm against God.
The beast from the land looks like a lamb, but speaks like a dragon. In other words, it looks like Christ but speaks like the devil. It looks like geniune religion but is false religion from the pit of hell. It's very deceptive. The last days are marked all over scripture as being deceptive. Jesus warned of deception, as did the prophets and the apostles. Paul warned of great apostacy. This is the devil's ecclesiastic arm.
You'll notice that the woman called Mystery, Babylon the Great, mother of harlots and abominations in the earth, who is also the beast from the land, is riding the beast from the sea. They are in league together. This is so until the beast from the sea turns on the woman. Remember Jesus said that Satan doesn't fight against Satan, because a house divided against itself cannot stand. However, in the last days God is going to bring about the result of Satan fighting against himself. The civil side of his attack is going to fight the ecclesiastic side of his attack. This is reminiscent of when the Ammonites and Moabites fought against themselves instead of Judah, who they had intended to fight. They did this because the great God of heaven brought it about.
The testimony of the true Christian church for over 1000 years is that this mystery babylon is the papacy/Roman Catholic Church.
I agree with them.
And their dead bodies lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. Rev 11:8
Besides clearly identifying Mystery Babylon as apostate Jerusalem (i.e. the great city; the great harlot; Babylon the great; the great city, Babylon, the strong city; etc.) in the above passage, we are actually given here FOUR points of comparison from the scriptures, Babylon, Sodom, Egypt, and Jerusalem, from which there was an EXODUS from each one:
Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and save every man his life; be not cut off in her iniquity: for it is the time of Jehovah`s vengeance; he will render unto her a recompense.
……..My people, go ye out of the midst of her, and save yourselves every man from the fierce anger of Jehovah. Jer 51:6,45
And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters that are here, lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city. But he lingered; and the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters, Jehovah being merciful unto him; and they brought him forth, and set him without the city. And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the Plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed. Gen 19: 12-17
And Jehovah said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people that are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows; and I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey;……… Ex 3:7-8
“But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand. Then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out; and let not them that are in the country enter therein. For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.” Lu 21:20-23
[see: http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=63301 ]
So these are not really Israel after the flesh, but actually, specifically Roman Catholics?:
......the blasphemy of them that say they are Jews, and they art not, but are a synagogue of Satan.....
....the synagogue of Satan, of them that say they are Jews, and they are not, but do lie....