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Who will be in the millennial kingdom?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Amy.G, Oct 12, 2008.

  1. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    I am doing my own studies and no I'm not A-mil. I'm "I have no idea-mil" :laugh: .

    I ask questions because I notice things that I've not noticed before and that's because I just accepted the pre-trib/pre-mil view because I thought it was just too complicated to figure out on my own. Now that I'm looking into it myself, there are things that definitely don't square with the pre-trib view. (But that may be because I'm not seeing it the right way.)

    I agree that it may take years. Unfortunately, there is no one for me to talk to about this except those that follow the Tim Lahaye view of end times, other than the folks here on the BB.

    When I ask questions or seem to be arguing for one view or the other, it's just my way of getting to the truth, which is out there somewhere! :thumbs:
     
  2. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    :laugh:

    I didn't read the LaHaye books but my understanding is that many pre-tribbers did not like them or necessarily agree with his scenario. Don't take LaHaye as the model for the pre-trib view.

    I was also confused and did not at first go for the pre-trib view. But the more I've studied scripture and the more I've read on other views, the more I see the pre-Trib view as the right one (or possibly mid-Trib). One of the more convincing things for me is the Tribulation - God's wrath being poured out on the earth (as described in Rev.). This we have not seen for sure.

    Okey-dokey!:wavey: I would, however, say the answer is not really "out there" but in the Bible.
     
  3. Lukasaurus

    Lukasaurus Member

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    Amy G.

    I suggest you read

    Rightly Dividing the Word by C.I. Scofield for an analysis of the Kingdom of God vs the Kingdom of Heaven.

    Dr Ruckman also has a more detailed book called "The More Sure Word of Prophecy", about the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven. I haven't read it myself, so I can't comment (although I am sure that everyone else will comment, despite not having read it either), but I have heard it is more in depth than Scofields short tract (Scofield has some errors in his tract.. well, maybe not errors, but there is a misunderstanding about OT salvation and where an OT saint goes after death).

    https://www.thywordistrue.com/view_..._Kingdom_of_God_vs_The_Kingdom_of_Heaven.html
     
    #23 Lukasaurus, Oct 13, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 13, 2008
  4. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    The term "kingdom of heaven" occurs 32 times in the NT (KJV) and only in the book of Matthew.

    The term "kingdom of God" occurs 71 times.

    Here are some parallel passages:

    *********************************************************

    Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

    Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

    *********************************************************

    Matthew 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

    Luke 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

    *********************************************************

    Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

    Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:

    *********************************************************

    Matthew 13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:

    Mark 4:30-31 And he said, Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it? [It is] like a grain of mustard seed...

    *********************************************************

    Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened

    Luke 13:20-21 And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God? It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

    *********************************************************

    The kingdom of God and the kindgom of heaven are the same.
     
  5. Lukasaurus

    Lukasaurus Member

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    Are they?

    Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

    So, one can take the Kingdom of God by force? If the Kingdom of God is within us, as Jesus says, then one can take our salvation from us. But Jesus said no man can pluck us out of His hand?

    The Kingdom of Heaven and Kingdom of God are not the same. They are very similar, but are seperate. They have most things in common. You were asking questions at the start of this thread, which is why I suggested the books. Why respond with a rebuke when I was trying to help out.

    A polite way of turning down my advice would have been to have said

    "Thanks Brother, but I think I have it sorted out now!"

    Love,
    Luke
     
  6. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    How do you explain the scriptures I posted?

    And no, I don't have it sorted out, so I can't say that. :)

    I wasn't rebuking you, just disagreeing. I'm sorry you were offended.
     
  7. Lukasaurus

    Lukasaurus Member

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    Like I said, the KoG and KoH have most things in common.

    Here is an example of a difference

    Mat 25:14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
    Mat 25:15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
    Mat 25:16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
    Mat 25:17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
    Mat 25:18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
    Mat 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
    Mat 25:20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
    Mat 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
    Mat 25:22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
    Mat 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
    Mat 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
    Mat 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
    Mat 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
    Mat 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
    Mat 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
    Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
    Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


    The parallel passage is found in Luke 19

    Luk 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
    Luk 19:13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
    Luk 19:14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
    Luk 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
    Luk 19:16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
    Luk 19:17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
    Luk 19:18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
    Luk 19:19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
    Luk 19:20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
    Luk 19:21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
    Luk 19:22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
    Luk 19:23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
    Luk 19:24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
    Luk 19:25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
    Luk 19:26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.


    The Matthew, the Lord gives talents, and the phrase Kingdom of Heaven is there.

    Talents are a jewish currency. The foolish servant has his talent taken from Him and he is cast into outer darkness.

    So, the main things in the Matthew parable are:

    1. Jewish talents
    2. Failure to increase results in damnation

    The is the Kingdom of Heaven - Works based Salvation in the Millennial Kingdom (or it could possibly be the tribulation period).

    The parable is Luke is notable for two things. It uses pounds, a gentile currency. The foolish servant is not condemned, but rather, the enemies of the Lord (those he went away for), are brought before him and slain.

    So, the parable in Luke has

    1. Gentile Currency (pounds)
    2. Failure to increase results in loss of reward, but not damnation.

    This is the Kingdom of God. Grace based salvation, rewards based on works.
     
  8. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    There are not 2 salvations. Salvation is by grace through faith, not of works.

    I hope you haven't fallen for the Millennial Exclusion doctrine, but that's what it sounds like.
     
  9. Lukasaurus

    Lukasaurus Member

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    No, no saved person will be exluded from the millennium.

    What I was saying was that during the millennium, there is a works based salvation. It is still God's grace, but there is no faith. Why no faith?

    Because Jesus Christ will be on earth PHYSICALLY during the Millennial kingdom. People don't need to have faith in something they will see. Faith is the evidence of things UNSEEN, the substance of things HOPED for.

    Faith and Hope will be done away with in the Millennium, but Love/Charity will remain.

    So a better way to say it would be that during the millennium, the Law of Christ will be the way to be saved, and a love for Christ will involve obeying his commands.

    I never said there were two salvations. But the Bible does make it clear there are divisions in salvation anyway. The Church is the Bride of Christ, Israel are the friends of the groom. They don't share the same inheritance as us, and we don't share the same inheritance as them.

    Luke 19 is talking about NOW - the Kingdom of God. Disobedient christians will lose their reward (reigning with Christ in the millennium), but are not cast out - they will still be in the millennium with ressurection bodies and will never die.

    Matthew 25 is talking about FUTURE - the Kingdom of Heaven (MK). Disobedience without repentance in that age of the earthly Kingdom of Israel results in eternal damnation.
     
  10. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Guys, I think we have strayed from the orginal question of "who will be ing the MK?" And that is my fault. I took it in all different directions.

    Getting back to the OP, Lukasauras said that resurrected saints will be in the MK.

    Humblesmith said that mortal sinners will be there because Christ must rule them with a rod of iron.

    Already we have the mortal (corruptible) mixing with the immortal (incorruptible).

    Does this not sound odd to anyone except me?
     
  11. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Why is it odd?

    Scripture states that die at 100 years of age would be as child during this time. The saints were promised to rule with Christ were they not? These people who came into the Kingdom were 'alive and mortal' were all saved, however their children are not born saved. It is these who must still make a choice and it is these who will choose to come or rebel against The King when satan is loosed once again upon 'the earth'. How can it be 'once again' on the earth (scripture speaks of certain cities - God and Magog - that are earthly known cities) if there is no literal Kingdom?

    Do you find it strange that angels and demons are amongst us?
    Why then do you find it strange that the resurrected Church be any different to be among the people but actaully able to see and hear them specifically and their testimonies?
     
  12. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    I have a question about this. If Jesus comes and those who believe in him are taking out through the rapture and the Holy Spirit is also taken out. Then how will people be saved to become christian and then martyred or persecuted during the tribulation? If we are incapable of salvation out side of the working and prompting of the Holy Spirit, how does that work? And as for the 1,000 reign it seems that everybody who wasn't wiped out in the tribulation will be there lead (by Darbyist thought) resurected martyrs reigning. And If Jesus will rule with a rod of Iron does that mean he is a totalitarian dictator that will be extreemly hard on all people who break his moral code? Does that mean he will have Gulags or Consentration camps for immoral people during the 1,000 year reign? Or will he take them out as happened for those who offended God during the 40 years in the wilderness? Ground swallowing people up. Fire consuming them from the presence of God? Just some thoughts I had about the whole rapture, tribulation, 1,000 year reign thing.
     
  13. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    No, I don't find it strange that angels and demons are among us, but they are in the spiritual realm. We are in the 3 dimensional physical realm and we do not mix or cross over from one to the other.

    I do not see anything in scripture stating that the spiritual and physical mingle together in the sense that they can see and touch one another.
     
  14. Lukasaurus

    Lukasaurus Member

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    i) Holy Spirit that dwells with believers leaves with them during the Rapture
    ii) The Holy Spirit functions once again like in the OT. It does not dwell in believers, but comes and goes. Moses and Elijah will do wonders by the works of the Holy Spirit. So will the 144,000. The Holy Spirit will still convict men, but they will not recieve the earnest, or the sealing.

    iii) At the end of the tribulation, there will be three groups of people
    a) Resurrected OT saints, living on earth, in their promised kingdom.
    b) Resurrected NT saints, living on earth, reigning with Christ
    c) Those who did not get killed during the tribulation, or wiped out at the judgment of nations (Matt 25) - they will enter the Millennial Kingdom.

    As for the rest of them, the Kingdom will be as described in Daniel 9 and Hebrews 1 - it will be a kingdom of righteousness

    Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    It will be a kingdom of peace.

    However, when the devil is released, he will find the hearts of unregenerate men as vile as they were before his imprisonment, and will lead many astray.

    But I've said enough.

    God bless you all
    Luke
     
  15. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    How did God save people in the OT before the Holy Spirit was poured out upon all flesh in the NT?? He is ever present here holding evil at bay but when the rapture has occured He will be removed or better taken out of the way of restraining so Satan work his evil unrestrained by the work of the Holy Spirit.

    The same way the OT saints did. The Holy Spirit is still at work in the world just not restraining sin and Satan in the same manner as He was before.

    Your added Darby statement is historically inaccurate at its very best. Its roots go back to the first century or early church/church fathers. And those martyrs will be reigning with Christ as promised by Christ.

    Yep.

    :rolleyes: - nothing more needs be said on this.

    Could be, He is just to dispence His wrath as He sees fit against open sin. The thing here is that scripture doesn't tell us how He will dispence His judgment against open sin, only that he will deal with it immediately.
     
  16. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    And yet we still have stories of people actaully seeing angels and demons even in scriptures themselves. Now I will clarify that 'we' as people do not cross over but when Christ returns we will return (cross back over) with Him who is able to take us with Him where we ourselves could not go.

    They do not mingle in the sense we 'see' them manifested constantly but they ARE mingling every second of every day. When Christ returns that veil which divides them will no longer be and we will see things as they 'actually' are.
     
    #36 Allan, Oct 13, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 13, 2008
  17. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    The PERMANENT indwelling of the HS is a phenomenon of the NT Church, unknown in the millennia before Pentecost. Jesus did it as a special blessing to His Bride.

    John 14 states that "He that is WITH you shall be IN you", and that Jesus would not leave His bride without the permanent indwelling.

    Now the work of the HS has always been to regenerate/born agian people so that they would repent and believe the good news. He changes the will, not forcing people to go against their will, but rather giving them a new nature and new heart so that they can finally choose righteously.

    This has not changed since A&E in Eden, and will continue until the end of time.

    BTW, think how terrible things will be on earth when the "salt" (Christians) are removed and the society-changing effects of a people with the permanent indwelling of the holy Spirit gone. Wow. All hell will break out on earth. (Read Rev 4-19)

    But even then, MANY will be saved by the same regenerating work of the holy Spirit, to the praise of the glory of His grace.
     
  18. blackbird

    blackbird Active Member

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    Jesus refered to this time period as "The time of Jacob's Trouble"----an era in which if the days are not shortend---there will be no man nor woman left to testify of it!!!

    But yet during this time-----more will be saved/regenerated than in any other time period that has been

    Thanks, Doctor Bob-----you and I are on the same theological page----ain't that dangerous---spooky?????!!!!:type:
     
  19. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Jesus Christ teaches us that, there are two ages. Right now, we are in this present age. The next age to come is eternality that will be follow at Coming of Christ.

    I would like to show you verses as what Christ mentioned of two ages.

    In Luke 20:34-35:

    "And Jesus answering said unto them, 'The children of THIS WORLD marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to that 'WORLD', and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: (why? because of -) for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being "the children of the resurrection." "

    Christ says, in this present age(world), people are get marry, produce more children. But in the next age(world) to come, there will be NO MORE marry, no more death. Because they will be resurrection, become immortality equal with angels, as they are called, "the children of the resurrection." That will be follow at Coming of Christ according 1 Thess. 4:15-18 and 1 Cor.51-58.

    Notice, 1 Cor. 15:50 says, "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood CANNOT INHERIT the kingdom of God; neither doth orrupition inherit incorruption."

    Paul's point is, sin cannot enter Eternal life as "kingdom of God" pictured as eternal life of salvation with Christ. In other word, mortal CANNOT enter the kingdom of God, becuause of sin.

    Premills believe that, when people who will miss rapture, they will be survive throughout 7 years of Tribulation Period as mortal(still dying and have blood and flesh in them). And people who will refuse receive 666 or not worship the beast. Many people will be killed for refuse receive 666 or not worship the beast. Whilst some of them flee hide in places and still survive throughout seven year of Tribulation Period. Finally at last, when Christ comes with angels. They will remain in flesh(mortal), and they will enter into Millennial Kingdom, they will continue produce more children born. Premill teaching that, both mortal people and immortal people will be dwell together on earth for 1000 years. Also, they teaching that there will be longer life during Millennial, as up to age 100 or beyond according Isaiah 65:20. That means, premills believe many will die during millennial period.

    I would like to say something on Isaiah 65:17-20a. First of all, 'one thousand years' is not mentioned in this passage nothing at all.

    Also, Isaiah 65:17-20a is perfect refer with Rev. 21:1-4 talking about new heaven and new earth.

    Isaiah 65:17-20a pictured as future perfect eternality condition is for faithful servants only. That would be follow at Coming of Christ. Same with 2 Peter 3:10-13.

    'Jerusalem' of Isaiah 65:18,19 is clearly spaking of New Jerusalem, NOT modern Jerusalem.

    'People' of Isa. 65:19 speaking of believers(not just for Jews only, also include Gentiles too) that means - US. Aren't we as God's people?

    The first part of Isaiah 65:20 speaking about us as believers that, there will be more more mortal or dying again that means, immortality as described in 1 Cor. 15:51-54.

    The last part of Isaiah 65:20 speaking of them - unbelievers. Let's us look at Isaiah 55:20b, "...for the child shall die an hundred years old;(WHY? because of -) but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be ACCURSED."

    This doesn't saying that a person shall still live up to age 100 in Millennial period. This means that a sinner will DIE, because of judged or condemed is pictured as punished in lake of fire seperate from God and New Jerusalem forever and ever.

    Please look in Isaiah 66:24 says, "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."

    This is clearly speaking of the lake of fire, where all unbelievers(sinners) will be spend down there in the next age(world) to come.

    Also, Bible teaches us, when Christ shall come with angels. All nations shall be gathering together, to divided them into two groups -sheep and goats. All goats(unbelievers) will go away into everlasting punishment -Matt. 25:41, & 46a.

    There will be NO flesh on new earth beyond Second Coming of Christ. All unbelievers will be cast away into lake of fire WITH their flesh and blood there. That means, all sins will be remain in lake of fire. Whilst there will be NO sin on new earth and in New Jerusalem. Because all believers shall be changed into immortality, as their body will be changed into new body and glory be like Christ's according 1 Thess. 4:15-17 and 1 Cor. 15:51-54.

    That is what the Bible teaching very clear.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  20. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Amy, Allan --- it appears that they do "mingle" to some extent in that we read that we often "entertain angels unawares."

    So here's what I believe on that: Jesus told John in Revelation to write unto the angels of the churches in Asia. These were actually pastors and pastors-to-be in those churches -- saved men. If we are saved, we have an "angel/spirit" that represents us in the spirit world.

    And I would say that this "spirit world" is actually eternity, is where God is, and is spoken of in such places as Rev 14:1-3. Here we note that only the 144,000 on earth and (my assumption) their angels in heaven can sing their song. So in Rev 15:2-3, we come to know that a) the 144,000 are going throught the GT on earth, b) they sing that song already shown in Rev 14, c) that song is both an OT and a NT song (meaning they are OT-type salvation that acknowledge Messiah has come, and d) that they will enter from there into the "consecrated" tabernacle of Christ's kingdom on earth (the smoke, etc. is the same as seen in the consecration of the tabernacle of Moses and temple of Solomon).

    "And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb..."

    Which all, to me, means we also see "demons" in those who are possessed thereby. Look, for instance, at Judas. His demon not only betrayed Jesus but will be released from the bottomless pit to indwell AC (the "clues" being both are called "son of perdition" and their demon called "prince of this world.").

    All of this suggests to me that our angels in eternity, in God's kingdom, are helping Christ right now to prepare our "mansions" in the spiritual realm where we will go to be with Him much as the trib angels of the 144,000 are helping God usher in the kingdom coming to the earth in Rev 15!

    And sometimes I wonder how "near" that world is to ours. Remember when Elisha showed his servant that armies of God protecting them? Remember how Paul says we are surrounded by a "cloud of witnesses?" I would say they are living witnesses but... And except for being caught up in a cloud, Rev 4:1, I don't see John having to make "intergalactic" journeys when his vision "bounced" between heavenly and earthly scenes. And remember how the Bible says "We feel as if perchance we may find Him though He be not far from any of us?"

    skypair
     
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