Whodunit?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by kyredneck, Aug 8, 2010.

  1. kyredneck

    kyredneck
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    And again the anger of Jehovah was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them, saying, Go, number Israel and Judah. 2 Sam 24:1

    And Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel. 1 Chron 21:1


    ......Jehovah...moved David... / ....Satan...moved David...
    Any comments concerning this seeming discrepancy in the scriptures?
     
  2. SolaSaint

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    Sure, God can use Satan any way He wants.
     
  3. Steadfast Fred

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    2Sa 24:1 and 2Ch 21:1 do not contradict one another. It was Satan who provoked David to number Israel, and this brought upon them the Lord’s anger. This is made clear in 1Ch 21:1. There appears to be two reasons why God looked upon this as a grievous sin:

    1. It was a matter of pride. (see Proverbs 16:18-19) Nebuchadnezzar also committed this sin in Daniel chapter 5.

    2. It was a matter of misplaced trust. Israel were God's people, and it was His responsibility to protect the nation. God had instructed the kings not to multiply horses, which would indicate the building of large standing armies (see De 17:16). David had shifted his faith from God to the arm of flesh. (see Pr 21:31; Ps 127:1; Jer 17:5-7) God takes serious issue with misdirected trust. It is misdirected trust which sends men to an eternal Hell (Joh 8:24). The Lord Jesus Christ frequently rebuked the disciples for failing to trust in God. (Mt 6:30; 8:26; 16:8; Lu 12:28)
     
  4. kyredneck

    kyredneck
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    Zactly. Thank you. I would go as far to say that Satan and the spirits get used a WHOLE lot; maybe even played like a banjo string.
     
  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck
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    No. You're wrong. 2 Sam clearly states that Jehovah (also) moved David, and that His anger was already kindled, and that was why He moved David to number Israel and Judah. We need to get this straight before we go any farther with this.
     
  6. kyredneck

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    My take on these two accounts of the same event:

    The rift between Judah and Israel (northern tribes) that eventually did split the nation after the reign of Solomon was already simmering. David was aware of this, and probably wanted to know if his tribe of Judah had the army to stand against or defeat the Northern Tribes of Israel if need be. The census was all about obtaining military intelligence, and there would be no hiding this fact from the Northern Tribes. Thus the consternation of Joab and David's captains, and why they objected and tried to prevent him from taking this census. To understand this, consider the emphasis/results of the census:

    ....there were in Israel eight hundred thousand valiant men that drew the sword; and the men of Judah were five hundred thousand men. 2 Sam 24:9

    God moved David, through Satan, to perform the count. As I said, I suspect David already was most likely already wanting to know the strength of the potential armies of both sides. I imagine that performing the census only caused the rift between the two to widen, which in turn caused David to see his sin and realize how wrong he was to perform the census, and it made him very afraid (1 Chron 21:8; 2 Sam 24:10) when he realized how outnumbered his tribe of Judah was . Also remember, “the anger of Jehovah was kindled against Israel” (the Northern Tribes), which was why God moved David against them in the first place. I think it's significant to note that the destruction wrought by the pestilence that ravaged the Northern Tribes ceased before it reached Judah, and the count between the two [potential] armies was probably more on an even keel after the destruction that was wrought by the pestilence was done.

    JMHO.
     
  7. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    pride

    I just want to see what you think. What if satan his pride told him to count them because some how he thought the promise was fullfilled throgh him and because of this God told him to go ahead and count them and when they came back with results it humbled him before God and men
     
  8. kyredneck

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    I believe the whole incident transpired for one reason: "...the anger of Jehovah was kindled against Israel [Northern Tribes]....".
     
  9. kyredneck

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    "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan asked to have you [lit.; obtained you by asking], that he might sift you as wheat...." Lu 22:31

    Any comments on this one? It certainly implies a dialogue behind the scene.
     
  10. psalms109:31

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    Questions

    Why did they ask him to do a census?

    Why was he humbled with the results?

    What promise from God was they looking for?
     
  11. kyredneck

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    I'm not sure if I understand your question(s). No one asked David to perform the census, in fact the ones nearest him urged him NOT to do it. It was God through Satan that moved David to do it, albeit I personally believe David already had the notion to.

    As with a lot of scripture, we're left to meditate on as to why. I believe that David became afraid when he realized how outnumbered the army of Judah was. JMHO. And, as I said, the census itself would have been a point of contention with the northern tribes, which could only result with the rift between the two to widen.

    I guess I missed it. What promise in the text are you referring to?
     
    #11 kyredneck, Aug 12, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 12, 2010
  12. psalms109:31

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    Pride

    Promise I was speaking about was Abraham seed like the sand of the sea shore. I can see where the number of the other tribe would humble him also.

    Scripture does refer to man as satan. Like one Jesus refering to Peter as satan going against the will of God or King of Tyre was refered to as satan because of his pride. I believe satan was his own pride and God also told him to do a cencus. I believe both done it.
     
  13. RAdam

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    At that time, Israel was the whole nation, not the northern tribes.
     
  14. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    Pride

    I do believe satan told him to do the census because of pride and God told him to do it to humble him.
     

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