Who's Responsible?

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by steaver, May 29, 2014.

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  1. steaver

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    Hebrews 4:2 - "For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."

    Were they responsible to believe, or was God responsible to make them believe?
     
  2. Iconoclast

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    All men are fully responsible before God
     
  3. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    We reap what we sow.

    There is nothing wrong with a person hearing his word taking responsibility for their action and say they believed because His word lead them to the truth.

    Doing what God word says is not evil.

    I believed look at what my hands of done I am saved praise me, now that makes me sick.

    You are not taking away God's glory for following His word.

    He gets the glory, but we are responsible for our own actions our own evil desires by turning our back on Him, not God.

    Ezekiel 18:32
    For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

    1 Timothy 2

    2 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.

    God Himself is telling us we are responsible for our action not Him. Will all men be saved? No, only those who come to the knowledge of the truth Jesus, repent.

    The wages of our sin is death, I didn't pay it. I am saved by grace praise be to Jesus.

    This is all happening in time the Holy Spirit working through His word to bring us to the truth, with knowing outside of time God already has His elect.


    "The system of truth is not one straight line, but two. No man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once. I am taught in one book to believe that what I sow I shall reap: I am taught in another place, that "it is not of him that willeth nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy." I see in one place, God presiding over all in providence; and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions to his own will, in a great measure. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act, that there was no presidence of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to Atheism; and if, on the other hand, I declare that God so overrules all things, as that man is not free enough to be responsible, I am driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism. That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other. These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring."

    C.H.Spurgeon
     
  4. convicted1

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    Romans 1:18-25:

    "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankfu[/u]l; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen."


    None of us will have an excuse if we fail in making heaven our home.....
     
    #4 convicted1, May 30, 2014
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  5. steaver

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    Amen! That is another clear passage that man is responsible and able to choose belief. :thumbsup:
     
  6. steaver

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    Amen! You have answered well. God has offered them a choice and thus they are all responsible. :thumbsup:
     
  7. kyredneck

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    Willis, Icon, you all paying attention here?
     
  8. steaver

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    Amen! Good stuff Psalms! :thumbsup:
     
  9. kyredneck

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    Only the redeemed, born from above child of God has a choice. Only the living can act, dead men do nothing. To the natural man void of the Spirit, anything concerning the things of God is foolishness to him.
     
    #9 kyredneck, May 30, 2014
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  10. convicted1

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    God has left fallen man to choose that which is most pleasing to himself, yes. :thumbsup:


    God has chosen Christ to redeem us, those who He chose before the daystar ever knew its place...:thumbsup:

    BOTH groups are responsible......
     
  11. convicted1

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    You must have misunderstood what I posted, because that's not what I said in the least.


    God doesn't draw, doesn't work with people, just so that they can slip off the hook and get away. He works effectually in His sheep. He works, He draws them unto Himself so easily that they have no other desire than to come to Him in believing faith. He's slick.......
     
  12. Rippon

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    God is under no obligation to save anyone. Out of His mercy He has chosen to save only His elect. Everything God does is righteous. The Lord is not responsible to save everyone. Those who He has chosen not to save deserve everlasting condemnation --as all deserve. But thanks be to God for His mercy to the elect.

    Praise His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the One He loves!
     
  13. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Thar's right:thumbs:
     
  14. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Well he has an agenda....next he will be asking why Calvinists behave like Arminians. Be on guard.
     
  15. JamesL

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    Are you sick in the head? There isn't one thing about that passage which says a man is able to choose to believe anything.

    When did you ever choose to believe that 2+2=4?
    When did you ever choose to believe that you're a human being?
    When did you ever choose to believe water is wet?

    It's not humanly possible to decide to believe something. You confuse responsibility with choosing. Believing comes about by being convinced, not because anyone made a choice to believe.

    If you took your wife to the airport, and she got on an airplane headed for South America, could you "choose" to believe she'll be at home when get there? Heck no you couldn't choose to believe that - because you just saw the plane go up in the sky with her on it. You have been convinced of the truth by the evidence. You put 2+2 together. Wife got on plane + plane left heading south = wife not home when you get there.

    "But wait" you'll say. People can choose to trust, right? Some great thinker has proposed that if I ask you to loan me some money, then you can choose to trust me by giving me the money. Really?

    I was at my sister's house once, and her 24 year old, unemployed son asked her if he could borrow $20.00 til Friday. Even when he had a job, he was notorious for not paying his debts. She peppered him with all sorts of questions about what he needed the money for, how's he gonna get it to pay it back, etc. After badgering him for about 5 minutes, she forked over a crisp $20.00. Seems like pretty solid evidence that against all odds, she made a decision to trust him...until he walked out the door. Then she turns to me and says, "you think I'll ever see that $20 again?".

    She made a choice to give him the money, but she didn't believe for one second that he would keep his word. She was convinced, by putting 2+2 together. No job + poor track record = I'm not getting paid back. But he promised. All she had to do was make a decision to trust him, right?

    Now you wait a minute. You would tell her she did trust him because she chose to give him the money. But her question after he left was laden with sarcasm because she knew him. Her belief in him was based on one thing - HIS TRUSTWORTHINESS. If he had a good track record, she might have believed him against all odds. But she had no reason to believe anything he said. Yet she still gave him the money.

    You CANNOT confuse trust with actions based upon trust.

    Believing the gospel comes about by two elements...someone tells you, whether written or spoken, about what God has promised (the gospel), and the Holy Spirit working to convince you that God is trustworthy enough to believe Him.

    You can't choose to believe that God is what God has promised. That can only come about by being convinced. But men refuse the conviction and enlightenment of the Holy Spirit.

    And that is how God does ALL the work in regeneration, yet man is 100% responsible.
     
  16. JamesL

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    Rubbish. The elect are only a small fragment of those whom He has chosen to save. Look at the parable of the sower...

    The first soil, lost. Did not receive the word.

    Second and third soils, received the word. They believed and were saved. Eternally secure. But failed to endure. You and I will see them there.

    Fourth soil is the elect. Those who endured. They become sons of God and joint heirs with Christ because the suffered with Him, being conformed to His image. Read Romans 8.

    Why do you think many are called but few are chosen? Why do you think we've been told to work out our salvation? Plenty of people are legitimately saved, but aren't working it out. But you will see them there. They are God's children but not His sons.
     
  17. kyredneck

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    JamesL, I like you. :)

    Don't necessarily agree with all of your conclusions, but I appreciate them.

    I think we'll see those of the first ground there too.
     
    #17 kyredneck, May 30, 2014
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  18. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    People get confused with what they see when it comes to death than what they don't see.

    The dead we see a corpse is temporary for the dead what we don't see is eternal.

    The dead will suffer a corpse cannot suffer.

    We must first die to sin nothing wrong with being dead to sin to be alive in Christ.

    Jesus said a dead man can eat and if they don't eat they have no life in them.

    The first thing a dead man like me is called to do when comming out of the slavery from sin that caused me death is to eat and then say I have life.

    We need medicine we need a physician.

    We are responsible to eat to take the medicine to be alive in Chist.



    John 6:53
    Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

    "might have life." There is no life in God the Father for a sinner; there is no life in God the Spirit for a sinner apart from Jesus. The life of a sinner is in Christ. If you take the Father apart from the Son, though he loves his elect, and decrees that they shall live, yet life is only in his Son. If you take God the Spirit apart from Jesus Christ, though it is the Spirit that gives us spiritual life, yet it is life in Christ, life in the Son. We dare not, and cannot apply in the first place, either to God the Father, or to God the Holy Ghost for spiritual life. The first thing we are led to do when God brings us out of Egypt is to eat the Passover—the very first thing. The first means whereby we get life is by feeding upon the flesh and blood of the Son of God; living in him, trusting on him, believing in his grace and power. Our second thought was—there is life in Christ. "

    C.H.Spurgeon
     
    #18 psalms109:31, May 30, 2014
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  19. kyredneck

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    It's a statement of fact, not an invitation nor a command for the dead to do something:

    53 Jesus therefore said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, ye have not life in yourselves.
    54 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life... Jn 6

    Those eating and drinking have already been made alive, they already have eternal life.

    He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life;......Jn 3:36

    .....He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life,...Jn5:24

    ... He that believeth hath eternal life. Jn 6:47

    Those believing already have eternal life.

    26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.
    27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them...Jn 10

    One does not become one of His sheep because they believe, no, one believes because they are one of His sheep.

    He that is of God heareth the words of God: for this cause ye hear them not, because ye are not of God. Jn 8:47

    One does not become 'of God' because they believe, no, one believes because they already are 'of God'.

    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
    13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Jn 1

    One does not become born of God by receiving Him, no, one receives Him because they have already been born of God.

    But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God. Jn 3:21

    Those coming to the light, God has already wrought within them.
     
    #19 kyredneck, May 30, 2014
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  20. convicted1

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    Brother JamesL, an honest question. How can someone....anyone be chosen, and not be one of the elect, the sheep, part of Christ's body, &c.? Those two terms as synomous, no?
     
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