Why are most Jehovah's Witnesses former Roman Catholics?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Ps104_33, Jun 28, 2003.

  1. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2001
    Messages:
    4,005
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jehovah's Witnesses share exactly these same qualities with the Roman Catholic Church:

    Centralized World-wide church government from which all official doctrine comes. The Pope and the Governing body.

    A city where world headquarters permanently resides: Rome, Italy and Brooklyn, NY, USA

    Authority of this "world organization" is not to be questioned.

    Both consider God to be the head of the world organization.

    Both the Pope and the Governing body both claim inspiration.

    Both organizations are "spirit directed" by God.
    A simple definition of both is as follows: "Definition of a Catholic/Jw: 'Someone who accepts Rome/Brooklyn as God's visible spirit-directed theocratic organization upon the earth.
    Both have official yearly meetings of the world leaders.

    The official doctrines that have changed dramatically over time.

    Both claim "new light" or progressive revelation to explain doctrinal changes.

    Both share a similar hermeneutic on how to determine truth: Catholics have a system called, "Doctrine of Development" popularized by Dr. Newman, but anticipated by the German theologian Mohler in his work, Symbolik. This hermeneutic contended that Christ had committed to His Church certain seeds and germs of truth, destined afterwards to expand to definite forms; that He did not intend that the teaching of His Church should be always the same; but ordained that it should go on continually improving under the guidance of His Holy Spirit. Jw’s employ exactly the same hermeneutic but call it by a different name: "New Light"

    Both teach the organization is supreme over the Bible rather than the Bible being supreme over the organization.

    The average members are told by the organization that they cannot understand the Bible without the help of the official organization.

    Both discourage independent thinking from the world organization.

    Both continue to blindly follow the organization in spite of major doctrinal changes, reversals and flip-flops.

    Both "explain away" doctrinal changes, reversals and flip-flops by claiming "new light".

    Both view every other church as heretical and false.

    No salvation outside of their organization.

    The word of the organization is unquestionably final.

    Interpreting the Bible is the sole right of the organization.

    Both make claims that because of their size, growth, activity, they must have the truth.

    Both have authoritative writings in addition to the Bible. Creeds, catechisms and the watchtower.
    Both teach that you cannot understand the Bible unless you compare the Bible with their official "authoritative writings" Creeds and Watchtower.

    Both have an official clergy system with special privileges and rights the common member does not have. Priests and the Governing body.

    Both have system of monasteries where "most holy and dedicated" selflessly pledge to do the "work for God" without any material rewards. No children are allowed in both. Catholic = monasteries; JW = Bethel
     
  2. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2001
    Messages:
    1,958
    Likes Received:
    0
    Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

    The real reason is the same reason that most Fundamentalists are former Roman Catholics.

    THEY NEVER KNEW THEIR FAITH.

    THEY DIDN'T LISTEN IN CHURCH.

    THEY WERE HOODWINKED BY SOMEONE ELSE'S INTERPRETATION OF SCRIPTURE.

    THEY NEEDED TO BE CONVERTED AND THE CHURCH DIDN'T SO THE CULTS DID.

    ETC ETC ETC.



    Cordially in Christ and the Blessed Virgin,

    Brother Ed
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    The protestant reformation was in fact started by the RCC's own elite - professors, priests and theologians.

    It would be "hard" to claim "they just didn't know what the RCC was".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. MikeS

    MikeS
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2003
    Messages:
    873
    Likes Received:
    0
    You've brought me back to my childhood!

    "President Lincoln had a secretary named Kennedy."
    "President Kennedy had a secretary named Lincoln."
    "The names Lincoln and Kennedy both have 7 letters."
    "Both were succeeded by men named Johnson."
    "Both assassins initials add up to 35."

    ...and so it went, proving, of course, exactly...nothing!

    (but fun nonetheless, I suppose)
     
  5. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber
    Expand Collapse
    <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2001
    Messages:
    3,079
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi Psalm,

    Both the Pope and the Governing body both claim inspiration.

    You are incorrect. The Sacred Scriptures are inspired, not the Catholic Church.

    Both claim "new light" or progressive revelation to explain doctrinal changes.

    You are incorrect. The Catholic Church does not hold to progressive revelation. It holds to a development in understanding by way of reason (i.e., theology) the historical divine revelation which culminated in the person of Jesus Christ.

    Catholics have a system called, "Doctrine of Development"

    Actually, it's called the Development of Doctrine.

    Have you read Newman's essay? Notre Dame Press publishes a nice edition; I highly suggest it.

    Both teach the organization is supreme over the Bible

    You are incorrect. The Catholic Church teaches: "This teaching office is not above the word of God, but serves it, teaching only what has been handed on, listening to it devoutly, guarding it scrupulously and explaining it faithfully in accord with a divine commission and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it draws from this one deposit of faith everything which it presents for belief as divinely revealed." (Second Vatican Council, Dei Verbum, par. 10)

    Both continue to blindly follow the organization in spite of major doctrinal changes, reversals..

    You're recreating history. As a Catholic, I know of no major doctrinal change or reversal.

    No salvation outside of their organization.

    You are incorrect. The Church teaches that individuals who are outside the visible membership of the Catholic Church may be saved.

    Both have system of monasteries where "most holy and dedicated" selflessly pledge to do the "work for God" without any material rewards.

    This one cracks me up. [​IMG] OooooOOooo.. selfless individuals devoted to serving God.. scandalous!
     
  6. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber
    Expand Collapse
    <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2001
    Messages:
    3,079
    Likes Received:
    0
    Baptists share exactly these same qualities with the Roman Catholic Church

    Both claim to have the truth regarding salvation.

    Both claim that individuals can be saved only through their Messiah.

    Both claim that their collection of writings are inspired by God himself.

    Both hold Sunday worship services in their churches.

    Both believe that God became a man, was born of a virgin Jewish girl, died, and rose from the dead.

    OOOoooOOoooo...
     
  7. Major B

    Major B
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/6069.jpg>

    Joined:
    May 6, 2003
    Messages:
    2,294
    Likes Received:
    0
    Are most JWs ex RCs? Maybe where you are. But here (since half the population is nominally Baptist), most JWs and for that matter LDS' are ex-baptists. (And most of the drunks, meth lab operators and politicians too....)
     
  8. Singer

    Singer
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    1,343
    Likes Received:
    0
    Carson says:
    You are incorrect. The Church teaches that individuals who are outside the visible
    membership of the Catholic Church may be saved.

    And.....
    Baptists share exactly these same qualities with the Roman Catholic Church

    Singer says:
    Well that's a relief.......Those outside of the Catholic Circle may be saved
    as the qualities are the same as Baptists.

    But yet....Our old friend Thessalonian said:

    "Christ established one Church for that very purpose. It is through the
    Church that Christ established that we find Christ and it is through
    the Church that we live a Christ filled life.

    If you guys want to putter around the edges in your little nondenominational
    assembly, that's up to you.

    But if you want to meet our Lord in the flesh in this life, you'll have to
    meet Him in the Church."

    Catholic Historian, David Palm says:
    The gist of the whole discussion of "no salvation outside the Church," , it seems
    to me, is that the Church has perennially preserved two parallel truths; (1)
    Those who through no fault of their own are ignorant of the necessity of
    being visibly united to the Catholic Church may still be saved if they live
    fully in light of the grace they have [a logical corrollary to this would be
    that they are, in this case, in some kind of communion with the Catholic
    Church, however imperfect] and (2) there is no salvation outside the Catholic
    Church

    ****************************************************************

    We've seen this before: Proud claims of the need to join the only church that
    supposedly has the franchise on salvation and then a denial of those same
    statements when confronted.

    But then of course from someone who believes that Jesus Himself was a Catholic,
    we could expect some backstepping from time to time.

    Are too, Are not, Are too, Are not......Which is it ? [​IMG] )
     
  9. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/3mom.jpg>

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2003
    Messages:
    1,594
    Likes Received:
    0
    Carson,

    Either the doctrines have changed or you aren't really a Catholic.....

    Athanasian Creed

    1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;

    2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

    3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

    4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.

    5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

    6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.

    7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.

    8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.

    9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

    10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.

    11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.

    12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.

    13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.

    14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.

    15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;

    16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

    17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;

    18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.

    19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;

    20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.

    21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.

    22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.

    23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

    24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.

    25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.

    26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.

    27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

    28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

    29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.

    31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.

    32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.

    33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.

    34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.

    35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.

    36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.

    37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;

    38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;

    39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;

    40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

    41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;

    42. and shall give account of their own works.

    43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

    44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

    I can point out at least 20 Biblical contradictions in that Creed.

    So who's authority is greater?

    :rolleyes:
     
  10. gb93433

    gb93433
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    15,496
    Likes Received:
    6
    I think it's much like the question "Why are so many Mormons coming from the Catholic Church and the Southern Baptist COnvention?"

    I believe it's because they have a spiritual thirst but don't know their Bible very well.
     
  11. Singer

    Singer
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    1,343
    Likes Received:
    0
    I believe it's because they have a spiritual thirst but don't know their Bible very well.

    Good point gb.
    My own spiritual thirst (I call it a "God Vacuum") was filled when I met with
    Christ in faith and believed the gospel story of His life, death and ressurrection;
    knowing that my sins were forgiven and that He'd died ONCE and FOR ALL for them.

    Yet on this board, I encounter both Protestants and Catholics who would
    choose to destroy that faith on the grounds of menial topics including the effects
    of prayer that I encountered, my being unchurched, my not entertaining the
    ideals of Catholicism, my present state of unbaptism, feelings, etc.

    As for thirst, I DO NOT thirst for obtaining my own righteousness.
    That thirst was met 27 years ago and has been replaced with a desire to share
    the gospel with others. Christ IS my righteousness and I have no desire
    to maintain a lifestyle of church-hopping to Find Christ. He came to me
    (chose me) and I work for Him and accept what He gives me in this physical and
    in this spiritual existance. Doctrines of man will not replace my joy.

    No amount of study of ancient Greek, Hebrew or Aramic, Catholic history,
    Mormon or Jewish, the extra books of the bible; no confession to priests or
    attendance at Mass, or a new or different undersrtanding of Christ's purpose on earth or conformation to any church's authority will give me
    the ''peace that passeth all understanding''.

    I grew up in a ''cult ..?'' that preached exclusivism much like the Catholic Church
    proposes. I did not find peace there....and contend that anyone who cannot leave
    his present church/organization and still have peace........did not have peace to begin
    with. Many of the deceived are seeking God's approval via their actions / including
    finding that "right church".

    "Whosoever Believes in Me" (Jesus) is the Right Church and many
    people miss it and find an artificial quenching that will be brought to judgement
    some day.

    Thanks for letting me unload my joy on you. [​IMG]
     
  12. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2001
    Messages:
    4,427
    Likes Received:
    0
    Funny, I don't see even one biblical contradiction in the creed. What a powerful testimony to our ancient faith and what those who walked with the Lord himself and first confessed his divinity believed.

    You know what I have always found fascinating even being a Baptist, the label "Catholic". It means universal. The label doesn't refer to a man at all. It is a reference to truth. Catholic Christians have no distinct founder except Jesus Christ.

    3AngelsMom,

    Please post the 20+ biblical contradictions that you found. Perhaps we can take them one at a time and clear up any misunderstandings.
     
  13. Singer

    Singer
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    1,343
    Likes Received:
    0
    Adam;

    You might should research just how the word catholic became Catholic.
    Somebody added a capital C and made a noun out of it.
    Is there any biblical authority to do such?

    Not all facial tissues are Kleenex....you know !!

    I'm catholic.

    Small ''c''

    ;)
     
  14. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2001
    Messages:
    4,427
    Likes Received:
    0
    Sure, but all faith develops over time. Certianly we can see that in our own lives. As the early church grew, they developed and started defining their faith more clearly in a fight against the many heresies that started popping up. Whether or not the Catholic church is the true gaurdian of the faith for the past 2000 years, I'm not so sure on that, but they sure have gaurded alot! I'll give them that.
     
  15. Singer

    Singer
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    1,343
    Likes Received:
    0
    There was enough faith in the three thousand in Acts to merit them addition
    to the kingdom THAT DAY ! The thief on the cross was awarded paradise on
    the spot. Abraham's faith was counted unto him as righteousness...right then.

    How do we know the Catholic way was not one of the heresies that ''popped up''?


    Salvation was offered to Jews and Gentiles alike....not surpassing anyone.
    Think of us all today as starting over back in the time that Jesus walked the earth.
    He brought the plan of salvation with Him (He was IT) and He offered it to all.
    His issue is...do we believe that He was who he said He was.

    Paul warned the early churches not to depart from their first love, and that was
    before anyone heard of Catholicism. Maybe He was warning us of Catholicism.

    Jesus offered eternal life to ''whosoever believes in Me"; and still does.
    There was no emphasis made on any earthly appointed church, doctrine or governing
    body. He said He was the Way and still is.

    I trusted Christ in my salvation before I ever even heard of all the outlandish claims
    of the Catholic Church. It's like getting out of a boat and planting your feet on solid
    ground and then having someone tell you that you can't get out of a boat that way
    ........sorry, you're already there. See what I mean?

    "Whosoever has the Son has life".....whether he ever heard of the Catholic Church or
    not. The way does not justify the means.

    Thanks for listening.
     
  16. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2001
    Messages:
    4,005
    Likes Received:
    0
    Just a thought here. Whenever the word "Catholicism" is used, dont you think it should be substituted with the word "Romanism"?
    Isnt "catholicism" (meaning universal) and Romanism two different things?
     
  17. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2001
    Messages:
    4,427
    Likes Received:
    0
    Not all Catholics are of the Roman rite, so no that doesn't work. The appropriate label is Catholicism.
     
  18. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2001
    Messages:
    4,427
    Likes Received:
    0
    "Paul warned the early churches not to depart from their first love, and that was
    before anyone heard of Catholicism. Maybe He was warning us of Catholicism."


    It very well could be. I won't give that up as a possibility, but I don't know enough to make any kindof judgement like that, and I know alot about Catholicism. Even if there are hard teachings, that is no reason to automatically write it off as wrong. (not saying you personally are, but most people do)

    Jesus offered eternal life to ''whosoever believes in Me"; and still does.

    That is one verse out of the whole Bible. Make sure that you don't lose scriptures message in one verse. The Bible also says that faith without works is dead and one is not saved by faith alone. Scripture has to be taken in context and work harmoniously together to work at all.

    There was no emphasis made on any earthly appointed church, doctrine or governing
    body. He said He was the Way and still is.


    Not in that one verse, no. But the Bible does talk about the Church and its governing aspects (think about church discipline that most Christians accept).

    I trusted Christ in my salvation before I ever even heard of all the outlandish claims
    of the Catholic Church. It's like getting out of a boat and planting your feet on solid
    ground and then having someone tell you that you can't get out of a boat that way
    ........sorry, you're already there. See what I mean?"


    What I see is that the Catholic Church basically says is that "salvation comes through the Church". By no means does that mean that you have to be Catholic to go to heaven. And they certianly don't make that claim. I think what claim they do make is that there are better ways to do certain things. In other words the truth that faith in Jesus Christ is essential to salvation was given to the leaders and followers in the very first church founded by Christ himself. The Church of Jesus Christ holds the keys to the faith. They are the pillar and foundation of all absolute Truth.

    I think that if one denies the truths held by the Church of Jesus Christ- salvation by faith in him, baptism for the remission of sins, communion, its pretty hard to believe that your following the true path that God laid out to salvation.

    And also remember that right or wrong, when the Church says "salvation is through the church" they talk about baptism- which truly is a big part of a Christians beginning.

    My two cents though.
     
  19. Singer

    Singer
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    1,343
    Likes Received:
    0
    In other words the truth that faith in Jesus Christ is essential to salvation
    was given to the leaders and followers in the very first church founded by
    Christ himself. The Church of Jesus Christ holds the keys to the faith. They
    are the pillar and foundation of all absolute Truth.


    Please reassess your statement and think back to where that heresy might
    have originated. I grew up in a group who assumed their ''way'' to be
    right from Jesus Himself. They were wrong and so are the Catholics in
    making that claim.

    What keys do you say that the "Church of Jesus Christ" hold?

    Pillar and foundation..? A denomination is a Foundation ?

    I know Catholics like to make that claim that everything points to the Catholic
    Church from their insistance that "The purpose of creation was the Catholic
    Church" and that Jesus Himself was a Catholic and the Catholic Church is the
    bride of Christ etc. That fallacy is no better than claiming that two kids knocking
    rocks around with a stick in a cave in Madagascar in 2000 BC was the
    forerunner of Golf. Why wasn't it the forerunner of baseball or why does it
    have to even mean anything?

    There's no proof that Matt:16:18 reflects anything to do with Catholicism.

    Talk about the wrongs in using one verse to establish a biblical proof..........
    Look what Catholicism has done with that verse. It is the sole foundation
    of their claims and without it ...all else fails to make sense to them.

    Now consider that they are wrong in that claim and see where the rest
    of their claims go.

    The bible does not point to the Catholic Church. That's merely a distraction
    from Christ. We are warned that there will be an Anti-Christ...right?
     
  20. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2001
    Messages:
    1,958
    Likes Received:
    0
    Brother Adam

    Thank you for that good and extremely accurate statement.

    When I was looking at the Faith which the Early Fathers held, I realized that it was the same Faith and believed the same teachings that the Orthodox and the Roman Catholic Church held. However, for very personal reasons, I did NOT wish to become ROMAN. But I did wish to hold that same set of beliefs and teachings which were held by the Early Fathers.

    It was, needless to say, a great relief and joy to me to find an Eastern Orthodox body which is in union with Rome, just as ALL EASTERN ORTHODOX were prior to 1054 AD and the lamentable Great Schism.

    And boy, am I ever happy where God has planted me!!! :D :D :D

    Nothing against my Roman brethren, its just not my personal cup of tea.

    Cordially in Christ and the Blessed Virgin,

    Brother Ed
     

Share This Page

Loading...