Why are there black Baptist Churches?

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Kathryn S., Aug 17, 2001.

  1. Kathryn S.

    Kathryn S.
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    In scripture the Churches are broken up by geographic territory, which is the model for Catholic dioceses and parishes. There is no such thing as a "black" Catholic Church. How can this be justified? Why don't Baptist Churches use the Scriptural model and set up churches by territory?
     
  2. Jesse

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    The church in question, is it labled "Black Baptist Church" by a sign or something or do white people just not go there?
     
  3. Pastor Larry

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Disciple 2001:
    In scripture the Churches are broken up by geographic territory, which is the model for Catholic dioceses and parishes. There is no such thing as a "black" Catholic Church. How can this be justified? Why don't Baptist Churches use the Scriptural model and set up churches by territory?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Actually Baptist churches are set up by territory for the most part. Most people go to a church close to their home. People may choose one church over another because of personal relationships and doctrine of the church they attend as well.

    What the Baptists reject that the Catholics have added in is the idea of a heirarchy in a territory. After the end of the apostolic era, there was no "chief pastor" in an area. There is no heirarchy in Scripture. Local churches are presented as autonomous and self-supporting.

    As for black Baptist churches, it is largely cultural.
     
  4. Kathryn S.

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    Jesse you asked if they were called black churches. Yes, I am referring to a list Dr. Bob posted about all the types of Baptist Churches in the United States. Among all the others he lists these:

    BLACK BAPTISTS
    1. Negro Baptist - Church of Christ’s Holiness I-VIII
    2. Negro Baptist - Church of God and Saints of Christ
    3. Fundamental Baptist Fellowship Association
    4. National Baptist Convention of America
    5. National Baptist Convention of the USA
    6. National Baptist Evangelical Life and Soul Saving Assembly of the USA
    7. Progressive National Baptist Convention
    CALVINISTIC ANTI-MISSIONS BAPTISTS (
    8. Black Primitive Baptists

    Pastor Larry, you say the differences is largely cultural. My gut feeling is that this is probably the reason. But, do you think this is right? Do you think this is how Jesus would want Churches to be? Shouldn't churches, as the assembly of the living God, be striving to go beyond cultural divisions which can only separate us?
     
  5. DHK

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    Some of the listings of the Catholic churches in the city of Edmonton alone:
    Immaculate Conception (French)
    Holy Rosary (Polish)
    Mary Help of Christians (Chinese)
    Nativity of Martyrs (Vietnamese)
    Sacred Heart (First Nations)
    St. Boniface (German)
    Santa Maria Goretti (Italian)
    Our Lady of Guadalupe (Spanish)
    Our Lady of Fatima (Portuguese)
    St. Emeric (Hungarian)
    St. Jung Ha Sang (Korean)

    And there may be a church for the blacks as well. But the evidence is in. The Catholic church is just as exclusive, and ethnically divisive as all the others.
    DHK
     
  6. Kathryn S.

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    DHK
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Some of the listings of the Catholic churches in the city of Edmonton alone:
    Immaculate Conception (French)
    Holy Rosary (Polish)
    Mary Help of Christians (Chinese)
    Nativity of Martyrs (Vietnamese)
    Sacred Heart (First Nations)
    St. Boniface (German)
    Santa Maria Goretti (Italian)
    Our Lady of Guadalupe (Spanish)
    Our Lady of Fatima (Portuguese)
    St. Emeric (Hungarian)
    St. Jung Ha Sang (Korean)
    And there may be a church for the blacks as well. But the evidence is in. The Catholic church is just as exclusive, and ethnically divisive as all the others.
    DHK
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    DHK: Catholic parishes are distributed by geography. The world is divided into dioceses and on the local level parishes. Everyone living in that parish would belong to that parish, no matter what ethnic group they belonged to. There are actually parish boundaries that tell Catholics what their home parish is. Although anyone is free to go to any church in the world. Anyone of any color or ethnic backround can go into any Catholic Church in the world. I would be as welcome in a Church called St. Jung Ha Sang, as I would be in Our Lady of Guadalupe. The Pastor in a black getto would be just as likely to be a white Irish priest, as from Italy, or Africa. I can see a need even in Baptist Churches for language needs, but not color.

    [ August 17, 2001: Message edited by: Disciple 2001 ]
     
  7. DHK

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    Disciple,
    "I would be as welcome in a Church called St. Jung Ha Sang, as I would be in Our Lady of Guadalupe. The Pastor in a black getto would be just as likely to be a white Irish priest, as from Italy, or Africa. "

    I am quite aware that all these churches fall under the Catholic archdiocese of Edmonton. And yes, you would be welcome at any one of them including St. Jung Ha Sang. The trouble is, would you feel comfortable in that church, or out of place? The entire mass, including the homily will be in the Korean language. All the people will speak Korean, though most will know English as a second language. You are welcome...but?? (It certainly wouldn't be my first choice if I were a Catholic).
    Another factor to consider is that Canada is a very muli-cultural diverse nation. We don't try to mold everyone into one big melting pot as do the Americans. When immigrants come to this nation they are encouraged to retain their own culture, and be a Canadian at the same time. It is only natural that ethnic minorities will cling together as much as possible, even if it means forming their own churches, whether protestant, Baptist, or Catholic.
    DHK
     
  8. Kathryn S.

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It is only natural that ethnic minorities will cling together as much as possible, even if it means forming their own churches, whether protestant, Baptist, or Catholic.
    DHK <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I have to say that Catholics can not decide to form their own churches. The Cardinal of the diocese sets up the parishes. Yes, I would feel right at home in any Catholic Church in the world. It is not dependent on understanding the language. Although most Churches would have the Mass in multiple languages. The same Mass reading are done all over the world. I can bring my own bible, if the readings are in a foreign language. The Mass is the Mass. I understand what it is and what I am doing. Catholics go to Mass even when we are on vacation or on business trips. That brings us to all sorts of different parishes. I can go to Mass any day of the week, just about anywhere in the world. We feel right at home. We love it that way.
     
  9. Pastor Larry

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Pastor Larry, you say the differences is largely cultural. My gut feeling is that this is probably the reason. But, do you think this is right? Do you think this is how Jesus would want Churches to be? Shouldn't churches, as the assembly of the living God, be striving to go beyond cultural divisions which can only separate us?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I don't think it is right or wrong unless it is intentional and enforced. The reality is that people of like culture and backgrounds tend to do stuff together. No one questions it when four guys who like to play sports get together to go to a baseball game while four people who like opera get together to go to an opera. (I would actually enjoy either event).

    If a church is exclusionary, then yes, it would be wrong. If it is "just the way it is" then there is no problem. Most black baptist churches do not say, "White people can't come." Most white churches do not say, "Black people cannot come."
     
  10. DHK

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    "Anyone of any color or ethnic backround can go into any Catholic Church in the world."
    This is true, but they don't have to, especially if they feel uncomfortable or out of place in doing so.

    "I have to say that Catholics can not decide to form their own churches. The Cardinal of the diocese sets up the parishes. Yes, I would feel right at home in any Catholic Church in the world. It is not dependent on understanding the language."
    It doesn't say much for the Catholic church if it is totally dependent on ritual to gain any meaning from it. Acts 2:42 says, "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers." Doctrine (teaching that could be understood) was placed first in importance in the church at Jerusalem. If you can't understand the language, how are you going to learn the doctrine being taught that day?
    However, to answer your point--Catholics do have the right to form their own churches, especially when you are talking of ethnic minorities. The Catholic Church cannot withhold a church from an ethnic minority nor can it withhold a priest of that particular race and culture from being the priest. They have the right to their own cultural identity; they do not have to be forced to be conformed to "the norm." For example if the Chinese community want their own church with their own Chinese priest, (not Irish Father so and so), they will get it, whether or not there is another Catholic church nearby. You cannot discriminate against the rights of a minority, not in this country. Not even the Catholic Church can do that!
    DHK
     
  11. Kathryn S.

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If you can't understand the language, how are you going to learn the doctrine being taught that day? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Like I explained I already know what the readings are going to be from the Old Testament, the Epistles, and the Gospel is, since it is the same all over the world, so I can follow along in my own Bible in my own language. Most every ethnic type parish I have seen have services in at least two languages. In a hispanic neighborhood parish there may be 4 Masses on Sunday in Spanish and one in English. Even in ethnic communities, not everyone in the family may speak that ethnic language. Training in the priesthood takes years, language is very important in the mission these men have. I have never met a priest than only could speak one language.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>However, to answer your point--Catholics do have the right to form their own churches, especially when you are talking of ethnic minorities. The Catholic Church cannot withhold a church from an ethnic minority nor can it withhold a priest of that particular race and culture from being the priest. They have the right to their own cultural identity; they do not have to be forced to be conformed to "the norm." For example if the Chinese community want their own church with their own Chinese priest, (not Irish Father so and so), they will get it, whether or not there is another Catholic church nearby. You cannot discriminate against the rights of a minority, not in this country. Not even the Catholic Church can do that!
    DHK <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Where do these rights you speak of come from? The government? Never heard of it. Is this something like gay rights? The Bible says we are to listen to the Church, and if we listen to the Church, scripture says we are listening to Christ. These "rights" you speak of are not from God. It sounds more like ACLU stuff to me. If any man of any ethnic group or of any color has a calling by God to the priesthood he will be accepted into the priesthood. Where he will finally be assigned is dependent on the needs of the Church, not the "rights" of what an ethnic group wants. If the Church has an Irish priest in a black ghetto are you saying that they have a right to sue or something? Sounds like government trying to regulate the Church.

    I can sort of see where you are coming from now. When you posted that ethnic list of Catholic Churches in Canada, you made it appear that this is how the Catholic Church wants to operate there. I see now this is government imposed regulations giving groups certain "rights". Boy, that is scary stuff. I can see that happening here in the U.S. To me this is persecution. Something like forcing the Boy Scouts to have gay leaders, because it is their "right" to be one, if they want to be. Thanks, I will pray for the Church in Canada. All Christians should think this one over.

    [ August 20, 2001: Message edited by: Disciple 2001 ]
     
  12. Barnabas H.

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Disciple 2001: Why don't Baptist Churches use the Scriptural model and set up churches by territory?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    They do indeed! No difference there between the models mentioned. The only difference is cultural, and since every church is autonomous they decide where they want to belong. BTW, in Dr. Bob’s list you have Conventions and not individual churches. [​IMG]
     
  13. Kathryn S.

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    Originally posted by Disciple 2001: Why don't Baptist Churches use the Scriptural model and set up churches by territory?
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    They do indeed! No difference there between the models mentioned. The only difference is cultural, and since every church is autonomous they decide where they want to belong. BTW, in Dr. Bob’s list you have Conventions and not individual churches.

    Holy Scripture describes the Church of Corinth, the Church of Antioch, the Church of Rome, etc. I don't see how they were divided culturally. Say there are two churches in Antioch. Do you think blacks would have gone to one and whites would have gone to another? Maybe that is what they would have been comfortable doing, but Jesus taught that his Church is one. If there was room for all in the same church, I don't think the apostles would be building a separate church in the same area. There is no indication of this in Scripture.
     
  14. Bob Landis

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    I don't think that there are any churches that have a predominately black congregation nailing signs in the ground displaying "This is a black baptist church." You hear about black baptist churches on the liberal news programs. These holier than thou race baiting pimps are always on t.v. trying to make news by playing their little race games. It is just a shame that enough people can't see that though them. If they did, we could finally put the cap on all kinds of racism once and for all. More people should pray about this.
     
  15. tigerbythetail

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    Hey, all. Let's ask the question: Why are there denominational labels? I believe in Jesus Christ, and that's all there is to it for me. By the way, if this is a baptist board, why all the talk about the doctrinally corrupt Catholic Church? I've been to a couple catholic churches. Talk about BORING and superficial!! It doesn't matter if you have black, white or asian congregants, their faith in Jesus Christ is what is the most important. They come to church to fellowship with their brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ, and, primarily, to praise and extol the magnificence of God. Who gives a rip about territory and location? What SHOULD be most important to all y'all is that you have more brothers & sisters in Jesus Christ to worship with. True, following BIBLICAL doctrine is tantamount to an ever improving relationship with Jesus Christ, and we all need to follow GODS doctrine, and not mans.

    :eek: Man oh man, there's so much worldly gobbledygook in today's "churches" it scares [​IMG] me to death. Why don't y'all just hunker down and ask the LORD Jesus Christ to tell you how to live a godly life?? It sure beats being tied down with a smothering weight of man-made :mad: doctrinal pus. I choose God's perfect,inerrant Word over man made hucksterisms any day. I'm not perfect and I screw up as much as the rest of you, but :confused: why, when I saunter in to one of these discussion boards, am I suddenly surrounded by [​IMG] a bunch of hot air?? Perhaps SOME of you need to get off your high horse and take a look at just what it is you're really saying.

    I am sick & tired of televangelists telling me that I have to be SUPEREDUCATED to feel like a half-way worthy human being. I don't have to go to ANY ol church to be a Christian, nor do I have to adopt the latest "christian" fad to love Jesus Christ (like the current "Christian" fad/marketing ploy, the prayer of Jabez).

    If you think that you have to dissect God's Perfect Word and add or subtract from it in order to know Him (Jesus Christ)and to be a Christian, you're WRONG! Sure, STUDYING God's infallible Word is the key to knowing a little more about Jesus Christ each and every day, but knowing the latest christian lingo, hanging out with a particular christian circle, going to the latest christian conference; these things won't make you any more of a christian than eating a particular food on a certain day of the week. You are only a christian when you give yourself wholly to Jesus Christ. Nothing less get's you closer to knowing more, day by day, about our Lord & Saviour, Jesus Christ.

    If a black person wants to be in a Baptist church, then they have the right to be there, just like a white person has a right to be a member of a black Baptist church, & so on. Who cares about logistics/territorial boundaries?? I want to worship Jesus Christ anywhere I may be, and I don't need to be concerned about territorial markings/locations. I love Jesus Christ, and no-one :D will tell me where I can and cannot worship Him. I'll worship alongside of genuine Christians, regardless of whether or not they are black, white, asian, russian, European, et al.

    Discuss things that extol the virtues and the power of Jesus Christ, not something that has nothing to do whatsoever with our Lord & Saviour, Jesus Christ. [​IMG]

    [ August 20, 2001: Message edited by: Todd H. ]

    [ August 20, 2001: Message edited by: Todd H. ]
     
  16. Jamal5000

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Disciple 2001:
    In scripture the Churches are broken up by geographic territory, which is the model for Catholic dioceses and parishes. There is no such thing as a "black" Catholic Church. How can this be justified? Why don't Baptist Churches use the Scriptural model and set up churches by territory?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    The founding of Black churches differs much from the founding of the churches during the bible's era.

    For example, my church was founded in 1868. Of course, this was about 3 years after the end of the Civil War, and South Carolina--the most confederate of confederate states in my opinion--was overwhelming populated with ex-slaves.

    Blacks wanted to start their own churches to for one thing thank God for delivering them from bondage. It was the ultimate answer to the prayers of a large majority of ex-slaves.

    Its difficult to fit the American Black church into a category like other protestant/pentacostal churches because it was founded on freedom.

    It brings new meaning to the phrase "The Truth shall set you free."

    Peace Be With You Saint [​IMG]
     
  17. SaggyWoman

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    I go to the "I love Jesus" Baptist Church. I forget what the make-up of people are, except that they are saved by grace through faith.
     
  18. Nat'l Baptist Guy

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    Here is the post to end all posts:

    The reason why there are "Black Baptist Churches" dates back to the slavery times. The blacks were not being treated as equal and therefore decided to charter their own churches.

    Over time, the Black Baptist Church has developed its own identity through the medium of culture. The worship services are different, the ministries are different, yet the doctrines remain the same.

    I know that personally, when I have attended a white Baptist Church, I felt very uncomfortable. One case in point was that I agreed with the preacher and I wanted to yell back at him. I couldn't do this because of the culture of that church. However, in my church, I would be joined by the rest of the congregation yelling back at the preacher "Preach", "Say it", "Talk", "Watch out there now", "Tell it", " You're right", "Yes Sir", and the most common, "Amen".

    So you see there is a distinct difference that has nothing to do with the diocese or the territorial aspect of a church. It is rooted and grounded in culture.

    IF you have any questions, you can feel free to ask.
     
  19. rlvaughn

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    NationalBaptistGuy, you have added some good points to this discussion. I would like to say that there a few white Baptist churches where the congregation still talks back to the preacher. But they are definitely in the minority.
     
  20. the 'I AM' hath sent me

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rlvaughn:
    I would like to say that there a few white Baptist churches where the congregation still talks back to the preacher. But they are definitely in the minority.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Maybe it's because we don't allow the Holy Spirit to move in our Church's. Maybe we feel like if we speak out or say AMEN, etc. that people will look and talk about us. Instead of letting God take control of the services. Just a thought.

    At our church, we do talk back: Amen, Praise the Lord, Have Mercy, Glory to God, etc.

    I like what Saggy said, we should look at our churches as a place of fellowship and worship for people of like mind in one accord.

    I feel comfortable at any or just about any IFB Church. Whether black, white, hispanic, etc. When I go to the white church, I get something out of it. When I go to the black church, I get something out of it. When I go to the hispanic Church, I get something out of it.

    I guess we need to be in a Church that we feel comfortable in. I believe all the Church's should be inclusive to other believers of like faith. Just because it is an all white or all black church, when someone anyone comes in that church, they should be made to feel welcome.
     

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