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Why are there so many religions?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Winman, Jan 30, 2010.

  1. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    If the unregenerate man can only do wrong, then he is not free. Freedom by definition means;

    1. the state of being free or at liberty rather than in confinement or under physical restraint: He won his freedom after a retrial.
    2. exemption from external control, interference, regulation, etc.
    3. the power to determine action without restraint.

    If man is confined or restrained by his nature, then he does not have free will. You change the very definition of freedom.

    And if man truly had free will before Adam and Eve sinned, but not afterward, then who is responsible? God is, because you believe God changed man's nature.
     
  2. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Again, same error in understanding. Reformed Theology does not assert that the unregenerate man can only do wrong. I've stated this before, but some anti-calvinists are more interested in holding onto their misunderstanding of calvinism than they are in learning about calvinism.
     
    #42 Johnv, Feb 2, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 2, 2010
  3. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Give me a break, I've seen numerous posts by Calvinists and Doctrines of Gracers here that say an unregenerate man cannot do good, any deeds that would appear good are done with the wrong motives.

    Maybe all you Reformed folks should get together and decide what you believe.

     
    #43 Winman, Feb 2, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 2, 2010
  4. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    I am, which is why I'm not lumping you into the group of anticalvinists that just like to argue. Perhaps I was wrong in doing so.
    The same could be said for the Arminians. Just because there's disagreement between arminians, that in and of itself isn't a indicator that an arminian position is wrong. Likewise, just because there's disagreement between calvinists, that doesn't in and of itself isn't an indicator that calvinism is wrong.
     
  5. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    I agree with you here, I certainly don't agree with all non-Cals as I like to call myself. I don't agree with Arminianism, because I do not believe you can lose your salvation, I believe in Preservation of the Saints.

    Jesus said men could give good gifts to their children. And I believe Jesus truly meant "good" when he said this.

    People take the one verse where Jesus said there is "none good but God" to an extreme. I think Jesus here was speaking of absolute sinless perfection. He must have, because he would not have then said men could give good gifts to their children. He also said some have good and honest hearts.

    Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

    Before Nathaniel believed on the Lord, Jesus said he had "no guile", which means he was completely honest.

    John 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

    Jesus gave Nathaniel a tremendous compliment here, saying there was no guile in him. Nathaniel was a sinner no doubt, but he was an extremely honest man.
     
  6. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    You make a valid and compelling point here, one with which I agree.
     
  7. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
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    No matter how a Calvinists may break it down, it's important to remember that Total Depravity does not mean that a given person, whether saved or not, is as evil as they can be, nor does it mean that they can never do good. It means that no one can do good unless they are enabled to do good by God. It also means that they cannot convert themselves, that is the work of God.
     
    #47 J.D., Feb 2, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 2, 2010
  8. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Andy, I agree wholeheartedly. It's disgusting. I reported this OP:

     
  9. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4 Member

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    I realize this is an old question, but Winman you are looking at it from the wrong angle. You are assuming that God is preventing people from doing good.

    God allows them to do whatever they want so to speak, and there choice is not Him. So it isn't God fighting sinners off who want to do good and love Him, but it is more like God is standing before them with His arms open and they cant see Him and don't want Him. An unregenerate person doesnt seek God nor want God, and this is what prevents them from coming to God- Themselves.

    The OP kind of causes me to realize what it looks like when unregenerate man try to find God or want God. The closest they can come is to decieve themselves and make their own god that they can control or that fits their religious status. The very fact that there are millions of religions and beliefs shows me 2 things-

    1. man has an inner knowledge that there is a higher power as Romans 1 says
    2. Man is totally depraved and has no idea how to deal with God other than trying to be his own god and have God fit in his agenda.
     
  10. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    That is plain false. According to your doctrine man had the free will to do good until Adam and Eve sinned, and then God cursed them so that they no longer had the ability to seek God or believe him.

    This would make God 100% responsible. This would absolutely be God preventing them from doing good, there is no way around it.
     
  11. RAdam

    RAdam New Member

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    God hasn't taken away man's free will. Man still has it. Unfortunately, the will of man is affected by his nature. An unregenerate person, one Paul refers to as in the flesh, will not seek God, love God, love God's law, etc. He will follow the course of this world. That does not mean that an unregenerate person will be as evil as he/she can be, but it does mean that person will not love the things of God and try to please Him. Paul says, "I delight in the law of God after the inward man." If you delight in God's law, want to keep it, want to serve God, it is because God has changed your heart and written this law on your heart. Unregenerate man has no desire for these things.

    As far as an unregenerate man doing good, I yield to Paul in Romans 8:7 - So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. And again in Hebrews 11:6 - Without faith it is impossible to please God. An unregenerate person will not please God. They will not seek to please God. "They that are in the flesh do mind the things of the flesh."
     
  12. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    I understand what you Cals keep saying. I get it.

    But you fail to acknowledge that according to your doctrine it was God himself who cursed man's nature. This would make God 100% responsible.

    It is you that cannot grasp this very simple concept.
     
  13. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    There's nothing in Reformed Theology that asserts that.
     
  14. RAdam

    RAdam New Member

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    It is man that brought about his own downfall. Did God make Adam sin? No. Then how is God responsible for the effects of that sin? God told Adam that there would be consequences for breaking that one commandment, Adam did it anyway.
     
  15. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4 Member

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    What is your view on the world? Why is it so evil? what happened after the fall of mankind?
     
  16. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    But if winman says so, Reformed Theology must bow itself down and beat its chest and proclaim its guilt.
    Very subtle, this guy.
    Ask him to point the finger at the one who said exactly what he says was said, and he can't.
    He misquotes everybody, calls God evil and the source of evil, then says it's the other one who called God evil.
     
  17. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    ......and he calls us dogs.
     
  18. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    To winman's defense, I don't think the use of "DoG" was intentional. Let's not accuse him of it if this was not the case.
     
  19. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Some Calvinists declare that God is the cause and author of sin. This from Dr. Samuel Hopkins.

    So, excuse me if I mistakenly believed that some Calvinists say God is the cause of sin and evil.
     
    #59 Winman, Feb 2, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 2, 2010
  20. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    And he says that "Calvinists reject Christ."

    Sad, indeed.

    The Archangel
     
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