Why are We Totally Depraved?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by InTheLight, Apr 6, 2012.

  1. InTheLight

    InTheLight
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    16,272
    Likes Received:
    620
    If you hold to the Calvinist tenet that all men are totally depraved please comment on the following statement:

    Adam was not totally depraved before he ate of the fruit, but after he ate of it, as punishment God made him totally depraved and by extension everyone else in every generation to come. Is that correct?
     
  2. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    You are going about this the wrong way. They will simply post a creed, or the writings of some Reformed theologians to support their view.

    You have to use scripture to refute error. You have to show scripture that shows an unregenerate man can choose God.

    Jos 24:22 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses.

    This verse shows men have the abiliity to choose for God.

    Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

    This verse shows man can choose good.

    Pro 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
    30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
    31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
    32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
    33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

    Verse 29 shows men have choice, and that many men do not choose to fear the Lord. But vs. 33 shows that some men do hearken (listen, take heed) to God. Total Inability is false doctrine.

    If you are in a battle, you better pull out your sword and use it, or you will lose. Stick them with the Word of God.
     
  3. Forest

    Forest
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2012
    Messages:
    549
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thats correct.
     
  4. Forest

    Forest
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2012
    Messages:
    549
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joshua 24:22, The people that Joshua is addressing is all the people of the twelve tribes of Israel (God's people), not the unregenerate. Pro 1:33, But whoso hearkeneth (hear) me shall dwell safely. Only God's sheep can hear his voice, those that are not of his sheep cannot hear, John 10:27-28.
     
  5. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'd be interested to hear JBH's answer to the question of the OP...

    :praying:
     
  6. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    4,319
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't hold to it, so I can't comment. :)
     
  7. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    No, they could hear, they simply refused to listen.

    Pro 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
    24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
    25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
    26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
    27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
    28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

    First, notice in verse 23 that a man must turn or repent at God's reproof and THEN God pours out his spirit unto them. So, a man is not regenerated until after he repents. After repenting and receiving the Spirit, THEN God makes his words known unto them. This refutes your view of 1 Cor 2:14, showing the unregenerate can repent and receive the Spirit.

    Verse 24 says they refused to listen, they did not regard God's call, not that they are unable to hear God.

    Verse 28 says when their calamity comes, then they shall call upon God and seek him early. So, these men were ABLE to call upon God and seek him.

    Total Inability is false doctrine.
     
    #7 Winman, Apr 7, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 7, 2012
  8. Amy.G

    Amy.G
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    Romans 5
    12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—


    Seems clear to me. You can argue the how and why, but it is what it is.
     
  9. InTheLight

    InTheLight
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    16,272
    Likes Received:
    620
    Yes, death came to all men through Adam. I don't see mention of 'totally depraved' in that verse (or in any verse for that matter.)
     
  10. Deacon

    Deacon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    6,974
    Likes Received:
    129
    Since nobody has posted a creed I thought I'd do it.
    Lots of good stuff in the Catechism

    Rob


    Westminster Confession of Faith. ​


    CHAPTER VI.
    Of the Fall of Man, of Sin, and of the Punishment thereof.​


    I. Our first parents, being seduced by the subtilty and temptation of Satan, sinned, in eating the forbidden fruit.Gen. 3:13; 2 Cor. 11:3. This their sin, God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory.Rom. 11:32.

    II. By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, Gen. 3:6–8; Eccl. 7:29; Rom. 3:23 and so became dead in sin, Gen. 2:17; Eph. 2:1 and wholly defiled in all the parts and faculties of soul and body. Tit. 1:15; Gen. 6:5; Jer. 17:9; Rom. 3:10–18.

    III. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed; Gen. 1:27–28; 2:16–17; Acts 17:26; Rom. 5:12, 15–19; 1 Cor. 15:21–22, 45, 49. and the same death in sin, and corrupted nature, conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation. Ps. 51:5; Gen. 5:3; Job 14:4; 15:14

    IV. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, Rom. 5:6; 8:7; 7:18; Col 1:21 and wholly inclined to all evil, Gen. 6:5; 8:21; Rom. 3:10–12.do proceed all actual transgressions. James 1:14–15; Eph. 2:2–3; Matt. 15:19
     
  11. Mark_13

    Mark_13
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2012
    Messages:
    271
    Likes Received:
    0
    Wow, it didn't even occur to me to search the word "choice" in the Bible. That fact that it occurs repeatedly clearly demonstrates that Calvinism is untenable. Clearly its repeated occurrence is grounds to anathematize and demonize those who hold to the sovereignty of God.

    Otoh there are verse like the following

    (Prov 29:19) A servant cannot be corrected by mere words; though he understands, he will not respond.

    Is Solomon just giving some pragmatic advise here for slave owners? Or is he alluding to a more fundamental principle of human nature. People are humbled and directed by circumstances in their lives to turn to God. When the Children of Israel returned from 70 years of captivity and chose to follow God at the direction of Nehemiah, was it just their mysterious free-will choice?

    True. some don't respond:

    (Prov 27:22) Though you grind a fool in a mortar, grinding him like grain with a pestle, you will not remove his folly from him.

    So, is the exalted transcendent nature of human free will most aptly demonstrated by a fool who won't respond to anything.
     
  12. Deacon

    Deacon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    6,974
    Likes Received:
    129
    Just a bit of disagreement with the opening statement.

    God does not make man totally depraved;
    Adam's sin separated him from God. It was Adam's choice to disobey.
    Adam's choice made his decedent's sinners by nature, enemies of God, spiritually dead, and condemned [Rom 5].

    Rob
     
  13. Aaron

    Aaron
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    15,693
    Likes Received:
    242
    Adam's corruption preceded his act of sin. A choice to disobey can only proceed from a corrupt heart.
     
  14. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,505
    Likes Received:
    454
    Baptist Catechism, 1695.

    Q. 19. Did all mankind fall in Adam's first transgression?
    Ans. The covenant being made with Adam, not only for himself but for his posterity, all mankind descending from him in ordinary generation sinned in him, and fell with him in his first transgression.

    Are all mankind descended from Adam and Eve? Yes. For Adam called his wife's name Eve because she was the mother of all living, Gen 3:20. Are we all concerned in our first parents' disobedience? Yes. By one man sin entered the world, Rom 5:12. Is our nature tainted with the filth of that sin? Yes. For what is man that he should be clean, and he which is born of woman that he shuould be righteous? Job 15:14. Is the guilt of it imputed to us? Yes. or by the offense of one, judgement came upon all men to condemnation, Rom 5:18. Are we exposed to the dreadful consequences of it? Yes. So death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned, Rom 5:12. And have we no power to prevent this? No. For whilst we were yet without strength Christ died for us, Rom 5:6.

    Was this the case of Adam's immediate descendants? Yes. For he begat a son in his own likeness, Gen 5:3. Is it the case of all those who in future ages descend from him? Yes. For we have all borne the image of the earthly, 1 Cor 15:49. But was it the case of Christ? No. He was that holy thing, Luke 1:35. Was He therefore descended from Adam in a way of ordinary generation? No. For His mother was found with child by the Holy Ghost, Matt 1:18. Should we be humbled for original sin? Yes. Behold I was shapen in iniquity, Psa 51:5.

    Q.20. Into what state did the fall bring mankind?
    Ans. The Fall brought mankind into an estate of misery.

    Is all mankind in a state of sin? Yes. For both Jews and Gentiles are all under sin, Rom 3:9. Were they brought into this estate by the Fall? Yes. In whom all have sinned, Rom 5:12. Hath sin corrupted the whole man? Yes. The whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint, Isa 1:5. Doth inclination to sin appear very early? Yes. The wicked are estranged from thye womb, they go astray as soon as they are born, Psa 58:3. And doth it continue even after grace is implanted? Yes. For if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, 1 John 1:8.

    Is mankind in a state of misery? Yes. Woe unto us that we have sinned, Lam 5:16. Is the whole creation the worse for sin? Yes. The creature is now made subject to vanity, Rom 8:20. But do sinners above all others feel the sad efects of it? Yes. Evil pursueth sinners, Prov 13:21. Is it great misery that is consequent upon the Fall? Yes.The misery of man is great upon him, Eccl 8:6. Is it intolerable? Yes. My punishment is greater than I can bear, Gen 4:13. And is it abiding? Yes. The wrath of God abideth on him, John 3:36.

    Are all men sensible of this? No. For they say they shall have peace, though they walk in the imagination of their heart, Deut 29:19. But should they be sensible of it? Yes. Now consider this, ye that forget God, lest I tear you in pieces. And shall they be sensible of it? Yes. They shall see and be ashamed, Isa 26:11. And are the saints sensible of it? Yes. O wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Rom 7:24.

    From A Scriptural Exposition of the Baptist Catechism by Benjamin Beddome.

    Steve
     
  15. Mark_13

    Mark_13
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2012
    Messages:
    271
    Likes Received:
    0
    "Why are we totally depraved"

    I personally don't give a lot of weight to high-flown theological concepts like "total depravity". The erudition of such a concept may imply inherent relevance, but we can't forget that such terms are coined by men. In pragmatic terms it seems self-evident that just being "in the flesh" (though another theological turn of phrase I guess) is enough to precipitate sin in everyone. To be aroused by passions is all about being a physical biological entity. We see all animals around us responding with anger, fear, instincts of self preservation, etc and lashing out at those around them. We humans act the same way. And the sexual impulses in us are constant even while we are cognizant of their sinfulness. Even in the case of Christ, it says in the Bible, "At all points he was tempted such as we are, yet without sin." I have sometimes wondered why he died at 33 - almost as if not even the Son of God could go sinless for seventy years. (OK, go ahead and throw the heresy label at me on that one - I have thought it though.) But just the thought that even the Son of God evidently had sexual temptations (if I understand the previous verse correctly) seems to point to the inherent evil of the flesh.

    I have been reading a book I picked up called "The Gnostics", (by Tobias Churton) and it talks at length about the Cathars (who were most definitely Gnostic) and how they were persecuted by the Roman Catholic church. In fact the Cathars were the original justification for the Inquisition. But the Cathars talked a lot about the evil of flesh, and the fact that the creator of the world was not the ultimate God. I just throw this out there about the Cathars briefly, because I think we can't just demonize every theological position, but try to sift through them and find the wheat. I do think that somehow the devil was intrinsically involved in the creation, or how it exists now anyway.

    This post isn't in response to anything really.
     
  16. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    Words have meaning, the scriptures say in one verse the Jews "have chosen" God, in another verse it says they "did not choose" God. Looks like it can go either way doesn't it? That is what free will is, to be able to choose either way.

    Well, if you read a little more you would have your answer.

    Prov 29:21 He that delicately bringeth up his servant from a child shall have him become his son at the length.

    A servant is not necessarily going to be rebellious. Men have free will. One servant will be rebellious, another will not. Again, this is what free will is, the ability to choose to be obedient or rebellious. The scriptures show man can do both.
     
  17. Mark_13

    Mark_13
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2012
    Messages:
    271
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think you're missing the sense of this verse which is going in a different direction from 29:19:

    (Prov 29:21 NASB) He who pampers his slave from childhood Will in the end find him to be a son.

    --------------------------

    There are other verses (in Proverbs certainly) that talk about not pampering your children, so this verse isn't saying its a good thing.
     
  18. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,381
    Likes Received:
    728
    Yes...very very solid...A good cathechism is most instructive:thumbs::thumbs:
     
  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,381
    Likes Received:
    728
    Mark
    This post contains many false ideas that are a danger to your soul.
    While you can read about some of these groups, there are much more solid things to read than gnostic heresies...you will not find truth there.
    The devil was not involved in creation...gen 1;31
     
  20. Mark_13

    Mark_13
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2012
    Messages:
    271
    Likes Received:
    0
    #18:Are we all concerned in our first parents' disobedience? Yes. By one man sin entered the world, Rom 5:12. Is our nature tainted with the filth of that sin? Yes.

    I have a problem with the idea that it was because of Adam's choice that we are all totally depraved. I don't think it comes down to his choice. What is strange is, that Genesis talks a lot about Eve's choice, saying that when she saw that the fruit was good for food, was able to make men wise etc that she decided to eat it. So it really elaborates on her choice. But it does not elaborate on Adam's choice at the time at all. Why are we not talking about Eve's sin being the cause of, "The Fall"? If the Bible is placing the blame on Adam, when he wasn't even the first one who sinned, then it must mean it was inevitable that Eve would sin simply because of the fact that she was created from Adam. So, this would imply that Adam was already fallen before he even sinned. And this would coincide with my understanding, that sin is inevitable just by being in the flesh.
     

Share This Page

Loading...