WHY BOTHER?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Skandelon, Feb 24, 2004.

  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    To all of you reasonable believers who can see the issues objectively concerning multiple translations, I have a question for you.

    Why bother? Why do you spend so much time debating those who disagree with you and who are clearly not going to change their minds?

    Doesn't Paul call us to submit to the weaker brother in disputable matters (Romans 14)? If someone only wants to read the KJV and fellowship with those who agree, who cares? Allow those who don't want to eat meat to abstain from eating meat and when you are with them abstain yourself. Am I right, or is this different? If so, how?

    Thanks.
     
  2. tinytim

    tinytim
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/tim2.jpg>

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2003
    Messages:
    11,250
    Likes Received:
    0
    Personally, I am still learning. And debating back and forth is an effective way for me to learn.

    I have learned so much since I came to
    BB. I can debate and when it gets too hot, I can walk away from the computer, and analyze what was said.

    Can't do that in person. This topic is too much emotionally charged.

    I have no problem with people that only use the KJB. But I do have a problem with people that try to enforce the KJVO extremists views.
    So far I have only seen a few people on this board that I consider an extremist.

    MOst KJVO here, are not KJVO but preferred.
    If someone thought that the use of any other version was a sin, I'd never suggest for them to switch. OTOH, I don't appreciate anyone telling me that it is a sin to use other versions.

    It goes both ways.
     
  3. Precepts

    Precepts
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2003
    Messages:
    1,890
    Likes Received:
    0
    O.K. Tiny, I prefer to be KJVO, but not by the derogatory definition. Am I one of the couple of extremists? I'm extremely King James Fundamental, but I don't hate anybody or abuse them for prefering other versions, I mean if they want to be wrong that's their business, but I do believe the error of the mv's should not go unaddressed, especially when I have yet to be on the offensive in the matter. I have always remained on the defensive side of the issuebut IO confess being offensive in my satiricle sort of way. Why I'll even apologize to those who see me as sarcastic, but I won't back down from my stand on the AV 1611 KJB. [​IMG]
     
  4. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2002
    Messages:
    3,417
    Likes Received:
    0
    And that's why people act towards you the way they do. Is it possible for a person to be so double-minded? I don't abuse people...but I will in this same sentence.

    Still waiting for repentence on the sarcasm thing as well. Not just an apology, but repentence.
     
  5. Precepts

    Precepts
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2003
    Messages:
    1,890
    Likes Received:
    0
    You'll be waiting a looooooooonnng time then. I will not bow to your demand. My apology isn't good enough for you, now I have to fit into your mold. You persistently make this sort of accusation, but satan is the accuser of the brethren, and then the pharisees demanded everyone fit into their little mold.

    I can admit it when I'm wrong, but you can't, I'm right about that too.
     
  6. russell55

    russell55
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2002
    Messages:
    2,424
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is different. It's not about preferring to read the KJV and fellowship with those who also prefer to read the KJV. If that was all it was, I suppose Romans 14 might apply, since then the debate would be over an extra biblical practice only, and not extra biblical doctrine.

    This, however, is about taking an extra biblical doctrine and insisting that those who don't adhere to it are not true bible believers. It's about extending inspiration beyond the original documents to a certain translation, and to only one translation (at least in English). In some cases its about elevating a particular translation to a place where it is more authoritative than the words that were penned by the apostles as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

    It's about not believing in the sufficiency of scriptures as a determiner of doctrine and practice, but rather adding a doctrine never mentioned in scripture and a practice not found there either, and elevating it to a place right along side those fundamental beliefs and practices that are mentioned in what ought to be our guide--the Holy Scriptures.

    It's probably--at the very least--pushing up against the fence of orthodoxy, and I am glad there are those who see it as their duty to faithfully oppose this error.

    And you know, there are those who change their minds. But there are also those who never actually get involved in the debates, who don't know much about the issues, who may be reading and might be taken in by these things were it not for those who fight the good fight for the orthodox fundamental teaching that the miraculous process of God-breathing-out was completed when the scriptures were first penned.
     
  7. tinytim

    tinytim
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/tim2.jpg>

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2003
    Messages:
    11,250
    Likes Received:
    0
    Actually, Precepts, I don't consider you to be extreme. Extreme, to me, would be someone that would walk up to me while I was reading another version in public, and tell me that I was going to Hell for not reading the true word of God.
    I don't believe you would do that. Someone did that to one of my friends.
    Thank you for allowing me to be wrong if I want to be, and I guess you can be too. You have my permission. :D

    I can appreciate a person for standing on what they feel is truth. We all know that there is too much relativism in the world today. That is why I stand so firm in what I believe. Until, I'm 100% persuaded about something I believe being wrong, i'll stand tooth-n-nail to defend and contend what I believe.

    You know, a drunk after they are saved are the hardest fighters against Alcohol. An ex-gambler is the one you want to fight gambling. There is a reason for this. They have been on the other side, and knows the damage it could do.

    I'm an ex-KJVO extremist, as you all know. And God had to prove to me 100% that KJVOism was wrong, before I began saying anything about it.
    Now I see it as a doctrine that has no biblical backing.

    That's just where I am right now. It would be so much simpler to believe KJVO. And If anyone could show me 100% that the other versions were completely from Satan, I'd switch in a heartbeat.

    My number one goal in life is to please the Lord.
    As are all MV users and KJVOs I've ever met.

    Just my thoughts
     
  8. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    And that's why people act towards you the way they do. Is it possible for a person to be so double-minded? I don't abuse people...but I will in this same sentence.

    Still waiting for repentence on the sarcasm thing as well. Not just an apology, but repentence.
    </font>[/QUOTE]This is what I'm referring to.

    Scott do you really think anything you say will convince Precepts to change his mind? Of course not.

    Paul knew that he wasn't going to convince some of those Judiaziers that eating meat was acceptable in God's eyes and he didn't even try. I'm sure they were even more dogmatic than some of these KJVO guys, don't you? I can hear them now, "Paul it is a sin to eat meat!!!" (Funny thing is, they had more biblical basis for their arguments than the KJVO guys have, but that's beside the point)

    What was Paul's response? Ok. I won't eat meat. When he was with them he abstained because it brought peace. Shouldn't we as MV do the same for KJVO? Maybe this is different? I'm just asking.
     
  9. Precepts

    Precepts
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2003
    Messages:
    1,890
    Likes Received:
    0
    Fence of orthodoxy? If it's orthodoxy that the words first penned were the completed Words, then where are they? Which ones are they? I know they are but we don't have anymore than what we have found to agree.

    Two things that are different aren't the same, right?

    The website posted by Ladyeagle is pretty convincing in the whole matter, but even if it weren't for that website, I still hold to the KJB and will not budge from it. I have never demanded abnyone throw their version in the trash, I have said lay it down and get you a KJB, hey, then compare the two, that ios when all the question comes about. I never questioned the KJB until I had something to make me questionn. But now that I have questioned the KJB I find it more to be the preserved Word of God than any other version available. I'm convinced.

    One other thing that convinces me is the persistent side-tracking the issue by other members outright attacking my person, that is where the fur gets to flying.
     
  10. Alcott

    Alcott
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2002
    Messages:
    7,456
    Likes Received:
    93
    Answer why you started this thread, Skanny, instead of just staying completely out of the issue, and then you should have an inkling.
     
  11. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is different. It's not about preferring to read the KJV and fellowship with those who also prefer to read the KJV. If that was all it was, I suppose Romans 14 might apply, since then the debate would be over an extra biblical practice only, and not extra biblical doctrine.

    This, however, is about taking an extra biblical doctrine and insisting that those who don't adhere to it are not true bible believers. It's about extending inspiration beyond the original documents to a certain translation, and to only one translation (at least in English). In some cases its about elevating a particular translation to a place where it is more authoritative than the words that were penned by the apostles as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

    It's about not believing in the sufficiency of scriptures as a determiner of doctrine and practice, but rather adding a doctrine never mentioned in scripture and a practice not found there either, and elevating it to a place right along side those fundamental beliefs and practices that are mentioned in what ought to be our guide--the Holy Scriptures.

    It's probably--at the very least--pushing up against the fence of orthodoxy, and I am glad there are those who see it as their duty to faithfully oppose this error.

    And you know, there are those who change their minds. But there are also those who never actually get involved in the debates, who don't know much about the issues, who may be reading and might be taken in by these things were it not for those who fight the good fight for the orthodox fundamental teaching that the miraculous process of God-breathing-out was completed when the scriptures were first penned.
    </font>[/QUOTE]This is a great argument and I tend to agree with you, however let me push this just a bit more if you don't mind.

    Was Paul failing to "faithfully oppose the error" of those who put the false burden of abstaining from meat on others? Think about it. What if today someone was going around saying you must be a vegetarian or your living in sin. Wouldn't we want to correct them for the same reasons you have listed above?

    It seems to me that the "weaker brother" of Romans 14 are those who are immature in their faith and who can't really be persuaded by reasonable debate. Paul seemed to recognize that fact and instead of engaging them, he submitted to them. Could we learn something from his example when we encounter KJVO believers in person?
     
  12. russell55

    russell55
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2002
    Messages:
    2,424
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't think it was about peace, really. It was about about a new believer (not a judaizer, either, but a new gentile believer) who still had a tender conscience about eating meat that had been sacrificed to idols. If Paul had eaten the idol sacrified meat, then they might go ahead and do it, when their conscience (influenced, really, by their old beliefs) was telling them no. Paul's action, then, would have been a cause for them doing something that they still felt was wrong.

    Paul had really strong words for judaizers, though--those who tried to enforce their own manmade extrabiblical rules on others--and I think that is more applicable to this forum.
     
  13. Precepts

    Precepts
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2003
    Messages:
    1,890
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hey! If it's a t-bone, ribeye filet-mignon, offered up to idols, bring it on! Bless God if it's hamburger let's break out the grill, but leave the "pork" behind, unless of course it's a honeybaked ham, fried porkchops, whole hog sausage. slab of bacon and even some fat-back. Just leave the crap in the crapper.
     
  14. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    Answer why you started this thread, Skanny, instead of just staying completely out of the issue, and then you should have an inkling. </font>[/QUOTE]Why did I start this thread? Because it became increasingly obvious to me that nothing anyone was saying was convincing anyone else to change their position. In fact, it only seemed to be further cementing them into their position. And I wanted to know what others, who are of like mind, thought about Paul's example of how to deal with these types of believers.

    Make sense?
     
  15. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    Again, you may be right here. This is what I was looking for. But, couldn't be that some KJVO are "influenced by their old beliefs" and therefore our use of MV violates their "weaker" conscience. What does it hurt for me to use the KJV when I'm with them? Why is this not a merely disputable matter as is eating meat? To us, it doesn't really matter in eternity one way or the other, does it?

    Do you see my point?
     
  16. Precepts

    Precepts
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2003
    Messages:
    1,890
    Likes Received:
    0
    Tiny:
    that's it, tiny, I have never dome anyone like that. I will admit i have read another's version and handed it back to them and told them how unfamiliar it read to me. I remeber the deabte really heated up around 1972.

    I lived in Marietta and was 12 years old. I heard preachers on the radio carrying on about it and one of them said what I truly believe is the case. If the KJB isn't the Word of God, then why do so many fight against it so? hey, that convinced me right then and there, and get this, I was L O S T!

    Everytime i picked up another version I read it a little and put it back down, it was just too unfamiliar. I read some that seemed close, but then all of a sudden there would be a word or a phrase that didn't seem to make sense.

    Oh well, read whayou want to, you're gonna anyway, but when the uestions do come, get a KJB and pray,get a good concise dictionary, learn the words and their defintions and see what God has to say to you. And ignore certain people who have no sense of humour!
     
  17. tinytim

    tinytim
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/tim2.jpg>

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2003
    Messages:
    11,250
    Likes Received:
    0
    Oh, I do use a KJB. That's what my pastor preaches from, That's what is in the pews, that is what most carry to church. But When something is unfamiliar to me in my KJB, I can look across the page (since I carry a parallel with KJB,NIV, NLT, NASB) and compare what the other versions say. And you know, the Holy Spirit uses these other versions to illuminate what the KJB says.
    Sure there are a few differences, But I have yet found one (taken in the context of the whole scripture) that destroys a Godly doctrine.

    When I preach, I use the KJB. Now I do use other versions when teaching childrens classes. They understand them better. The older teens are digging in to the Bible and can understand the KJB better, but when a passage arises that makes them wonder what God is trying to say (like the bowel passages) they look at a few versions to get the context. I never discourage anyone from using a KJB. I could never throw my KJB away. that is what I memorized and placed in my heart. And it would make no sense to preach from the NIV and quote scripture from memory from the KJV.

    It took a while for me to get used to the paragraph style in the MVs. I like to find my verse numbers easily. But since I've been using an 1873 KJV, which is paragraph style, I am becoming more accustomed to it.
    I truly believe it is what you grew up with that makes a lot of difference on how you feel about the issue.
     
  18. tinytim

    tinytim
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/tim2.jpg>

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2003
    Messages:
    11,250
    Likes Received:
    0
    Skan you asked why bother?

    Here's a possiblity. Maybe there are people like I was a few months ago. I was searching for stuff about the KJVO issue all over the internet.
    Lo and behold, when i typed in "KJVO" in google, it brought up a match here at BB. I believe God was in it that night (which happened to be Halloween, If my memory's right) Anyway, I was still searching, looking to be concrete in my beliefs.

    There may be someone that is passing by, that is wanting to grow spiritually and questioning the same thing I did back then, and by debating all the differing facets of the issue, we may be able to help them. Some may land on KJVO side others, like myself, my land on the MVs side.

    I look at posting here as witnessing for the Lord. There are searchers out there that read what we type. May what we say be seasoned with grace to help someone that is searching.

    Whether you are KJVO or MV, Love the Lord with all your might. He'll keep you straight. My straight stick is the Cross on which Jesus died for MY sins. He is my savior. Praise God he loved me enough to give his life as a ransom for mine. Thank you Lord for your precious blood that you freely gave to wash away my sins.

    Now that's preachable! I feel like havin church in here tonight. And it's only Tuesday!! Praise God!
     
  19. russell55

    russell55
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2002
    Messages:
    2,424
    Likes Received:
    0
    It is actually a good idea to use the KJV when with them. If I'm debating someone who prefers to use the KJV on here, I try to quote from it if I quote scripture.

    Preferred practice, however is a whole different kettle of fish than actively TEACHING misinformation and untruths and requiring something extrabiblical--exclusive KJV use-- as a standard for church membership, sometimes as a standard for fellowship, and in extreme cases, as a standard of "true" saving faith.

    And it seems to me that this is a pretty close parallel to the judaizers who required that new believer be circumcised. It's making an extrabiblical rule a requirement. Paul certainly didn't feel the judaizers should just be--well--coddled. He had some pretty harsh words for them in his fight against their TEACHING.

    Don't you think that if someone was TEACHING that believers ought to abstain from food offered to idols, rather than just abstaining themselves, Paul would have been outspoken against them? If someone had been spreading untruths and misinformation, wouldn't he have thought it ought to be opposed, and opposed fairly strongly?
     
  20. mioque

    mioque
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2003
    Messages:
    3,899
    Likes Received:
    0
    "If someone only wants to read the KJV and fellowship with those who agree, who cares?"
    I normally don't, it is when KJVOnlyïsm get's pushed onto uninterested foreign parties, that I get interested....
     

Share This Page

Loading...