Why Calvinists Preach and Teach the Gospel

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by KenH, Sep 8, 2002.

  1. KenH

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  2. ForumChaplain

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    Any message that cannot offer the hope of salvation cannot be called the good news.


    1 Cor 15:19
    19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. (KJV)


    The message of calvinism can offer nothing of eternal value, what profit it a man to gain the whole word, and yet loose his soul.

    Spurgeon's message is without the hope of salvation. To live holy in this life, only to become fodder for the fires of hell is of what gain....
     
  3. Pastor Larry

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    YOu are wrong Chappie. I hate to be so blunt but the gospel of Scripture offers tremendous hope because it offers a salvation that depends on God. Calvinism, as it is commonly called, offers eternal value beyond compare. It is that message which we preach becasue of the hope we offer. I had to depend on man, I would leave the ministry. I preach in full confidence because I know God is actively calling out for himself a people from every tribe and tongue and people and nation and that is what brings hope. The "maybe" gospel won't work for me.
     
  4. ForumChaplain

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    YOu are wrong Chappie. I hate to be so blunt but the gospel of Scripture offers tremendous hope because it offers a salvation that depends on God. Calvinism, as it is commonly called, offers eternal value beyond compare. It is that message which we preach becasue of the hope we offer. I had to depend on man, I would leave the ministry. I preach in full confidence because I know God is actively calling out for himself a people from every tribe and tongue and people and nation and that is what brings hope. The "maybe" gospel won't work for me.</font>[/QUOTE]According to my understanding of election, before the foundations of the world were laid, God had already made his choice. You must have got up pretty early to be able to touch souls in favor of salvation. Truth is, you cannot, god has already made up his mind based on something that you have absolutely nounderstanding of.

    If God has already saved and condemned according to his Good pleasure, what good does your preaching do in reguards to salvation. His good pleasure, criteria that is a mystery to calvinism.

    You simply cannot have it both ways, if salvation has absolutely nothing to do with any thing/choice that man can do/make, what does your gospel encourage him to do that can beg the mercy of God and has the remotest posibility of resulting in salvation. Absolutely nothing. Your preaching cannot transcend the day of death.

    Please, somebody; tell me how preaching today can change a done deal that god will not change. It is very fustrating to me when intelligent people are willing to throw logic/consequences out the window, blatently cast aside reality in order to promote a man made docturine.

    I so want to understand....

    [ September 12, 2002, 04:34 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]
     
  5. russell55

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    Well, for one thing, Calvinists don't say that salvation has nothing to do with a choice man makes. Those who are saved are only saved through faith; they must believe in order to be saved.

    It is election that is unconditional. God chooses those He plans to bring to salvation through faith based upon nothing within the individual chosen.

    But the elect still must believe in order to be saved. The elect will believe, because God will bring them to faith, but they still must believe.

    The gospel message is "come, repent and be saved!" And anyone who comes and repents will be saved. Our message to repent is an instrument God uses to bring those he has elected to save to experience salvation.

    I think I have mentioned this before in this thread, but I will mention it again, because I think it is pertainent to your question. We plant, and we water, but it is God who gives the increase. We give the gospel message, but it is God who determines the size of the harvest. God uses the gospel message we give to bring His harvest in.

    Our preaching doesn't CHANGE anything. But it does bring about in time what God had determined beforehand would occur.

    And please, don't respond negatively to that statement until you consider this one: If you believe that God has foresight--that He knew all before He created--then how is it that you see your preaching CHANGING anything?

    The question is really not whether it appears logical, but whether it is scriptural.

    All orthodox systems have mystery as to exactly how things fit together. The nonCalvinistic/God has foresight system has mystery (or paradox) too--the one I laid out for you above. It is that very mystery that open theism seeks to do away with. They believe that it is logically impossible for humans to have freewill and God to have foreknowledge, so they do away with God's foreknowledge.

    But the orthodox non/Calvinist says, "We don't know exactly how those two things fit together, but we believe the Bible says they are both true, and so we put them both into our system, even though we can't completely reconcile them in our pea brains." And they are right to do so.

    It is the same thing with Calvinists. We say, "We don't know exactly how God's predestination to salvation of some and the freewill and responsibility of the human being fit together, but we believe the Bible says they are both true, and so we keep them both in our system, even though we can't completely reconcile them in our pea brains."

    So you see, it is not really a matter of intelligence; but a matter of willingness to admit we have peabrains. :D

    [ September 12, 2002, 05:42 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]
     
  6. tyndale1946

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    Chappie said: I so want to understand.... So pray to God to take off the blinders that are hindering you from seeing and understanding the truth. Apostle Paul prayed for the Jewish brethren that were blinded to the truth... Read Romans Chapter 9 thru 11 and be delivered from the understanding you earnestly desire. Many are called and few are chosen does not pertain to eternal life but to being delivered from a do nothing God that has to get your OK before he can save you... What kind of manure is that!... "GOD IS GOD"!... Can Man a mortal finite sinful worms of the dust stand in the way of God and his Son Jesus Christs eternal infinite holy will?... I THINK NOT!... See the God the Primitive Baptist brethren understand and the true joy of your Salvation!... Bought and paid for with the redeeming blood of the Lamb Of God sealed for all eternity... Unable to fall and lose what God purchased!... The host of Hell can never touch you... You belong to the Son Of God!... Do you understand that Chappie?... Brother Glen [​IMG] :D [​IMG]
     
  7. ForumChaplain

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    Pray I have, yet i continue to be blind. But I shall continue to ask God for the light.

    I have learned how to love this do nothing God that is patient and longsuffering with his creation and is not willing that any should perish: I love him and I chreish him. If that is what you call manure, then please wash me in it from head to toe.

    But this power hungry God that you describe; a God that is willing to create and burn just to demonstrate his power and show his soverignty, even if it cost me my salvation, i will not attribute such cavalier injustice and lack of compassion to my God.

    John 3:16 (Calvin bible)
    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that those that he has chosen may not burn with the rest of humanity, but escape the consequence of their depravity while everyone else has to pay the piper.

    Maybe I will see things differently after much more prayer, but where did you find this God. He certaintly is not the God of the bible. In your dastardly effort to give him power, you destroy his sense of justice, his love for all the works of his hand, and if this is what you call mercy; get outta here.

    What salvation? Under john calvin; I need a scripture that says that Chappie has been chosen. I cannot find my name in a single scripture. How bout you, your name there, or you just feel saved. Or does believing John Calvin have the power to save....

    Pretty words that say that the God of heaven and earth is a respecter of persons. Saves some, burns the rest according to his good pleasure. I can see the ugliness beneath your pretty words, now we are up to our chinni chin chin in manure.

    But I am still praying. Why don't you do a little of that praying also.

    [ September 12, 2002, 07:05 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]
     
  8. tyndale1946

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    Chappie said: Even if it cost me my salvation... The cost of your Salvation was the blood of the Lamb Of God!... Once Saved Always Saved... I Corinthians 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. Chappie I am saved an secured in Christ for eternity... That is the belief of the Primitive Baptist brethren... We are not of John Calvin we are of biblical sound doctrine. God will save ALL his children and not lose a one!... Start seeing how amazing... AMAZING GRACE really is!... Quit trying to buy what you already have!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  9. ForumChaplain

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    Ok, now we are getting somewhere. We are saved "by grace" through faith. Not saved by election. Now we getting someplace.

    Ok, here we go again. Election is unconditional, not predicated on anything that we do, or any merit found in us. So God did the choosing, absent any consideration of man. Yet you say that we must believe. Yet god chooses us first and then he causes us to believe. Sounds after the fact to me. So in reality, faith is nothing more than an after thought. Not really saved through faith, because before God gives us faith he has already chosen us. Can anybody save me see that this stuff does not add up..

    To believe is inheriently a decision or choice that one makes based on observation or persuasion. If even God does it anyother way, it is still brainwashing. Now if God has chosen brainwashing as his method of effecting salvation, praise God anyway. Yet if that is what your conclusions result in, then "Say It". If God did it, he will not be ashamed..

    "What do you mean, Come"!!! (((((I cannot come, I have not been chosen.))))) HOW CAN I REPENT, I am totally depraved. How can i be saved, before i was born, God rejected me. (Help!!!!)

    Now watch this, please help me now!!! You said, "Our message to repent is an instrument God uses to bring those he has elected to save to experience salvation". Repent, you have been saved, Notice he is already saved, he is already elected, he is repenting after he is chosen/saved.

    What are you planting for, before you were a gleme in your fathers eye, God had already chosen those that he would save, and he had already saved them...

    Ok, but he already decided. They will not respond to your preachings, they are depraved. God has to change them first, and he only changes those that he has saved. Do you mean that efficacious grace does not work unless you preach????

    And it is not... An unjust god is unscriptural, now, bring on the mystery.
    God is not a paradox. When your conclusions end in a paradox, you have gotten something wrong. It is not a mystery, you are just incorrect in your conclusions.

    God gave us his revelations for our edification, he was fully aware of our pea brains then, that is no excuse for incorrect docturine. Your mystery is that you know that efficacious grace is an unjust concept that does not reconcile with scripture, so you are hoping for God to bail you out rather than intrepreting scripture properly...

    Still praying....
     
  10. pinoybaptist

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    Well, now, Chappie:
    I remember an illustration, in fact, I remember two illustrations:
    The first one went like this:
    A manufacturing firm came up with a wonderful idea for a pancake. All one had to do was open it, heat it, and eat it. All the ingredients were there, all the preservatives needed were there. It didn't sell.
    The marketing executives took a while to discover that what they needed to do was to instruct users to "just add one egg, stir, mix, heat" and presto
    you've got your pancake. [​IMG]
    It sold well.
    The second one was about a guy who was walking to the market from his farm with a 50 lbs sack of potatoes he had just harvested and he hitched a ride on somebody's cart. On the cart, he still kept the sack of potatoes on his shoulder and when the cart owner said put it down on the floor, he said "no thanks you already gave me a ride, don't want to burden you more by adding the weight on your cart floor". :D

    Ok, here we go again. Election is unconditional, not predicated on anything that we do, or any merit found in us. So God did the choosing, absent any consideration of man. Yet you say that we must believe. Yet god chooses us first and then he causes us to believe. Sounds after the fact to me. So in reality, faith is nothing more than an after thought. Not really saved through faith, because before God gives us faith he has already chosen us. Can anybody save me see that this stuff does not add up..

    Well, first off, true saving faith that gives man the ability to believe and submit himself to the fact of God's sovereignty is not inherent in man because of his fallen nature. He lost it when he believed the serpent's lie rather than God's spoken word back in Eden.
    Therefore, God has to do all the work for His chosen ones.
    Take a look at your own argument.
    You want your faith to be yours, not God-given.
    You want some part in your salvation, and that is exactly what the two illustrations are pointing out.
    When we say that we are capable of saving faith, then we are basically saying that there is still some good which God sees and it, according to Arminianism, is why God elects those He foreknows, on the basis of His having foreseen their future faith in Christ, no help from Him.
     
  11. Primitive Baptist

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    First of all, Primitive Baptists don't preach to make sheep; We feed them!

    "Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away."

    The whole Arminian concept of the preached gospel saving people for heaven is based on a gross misunderstanding of what the gospel is. It is not the power of God to unbelievers, but to every one that "believeth" (present active participle), that is, those who are (present) believing (active). Paul said it was foolishness to them that perish, but UNTO US WHICH ARE SAVED it is the power of God! God chose the foolishness of preaching to save (time salvation) them that BELIEVE, not those who do not!
     
  12. pinoybaptist

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    right on the button, PB. [​IMG]
     
  13. ForumChaplain

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    You continue to confuse me. So then, faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. God gives faith through the hearing of the gospel. If we hear the Gospel, yet we do not believe; no faith. We are on the road to salvation, particularly notice the absence of the word “election”.

    If God gives all the opportunity to believe, (The gospel) but some do not, God is just to judge us for our actions. Because we are responsible for our actions. If we are unable by divine decree to accept God, we are not (response+able) responsible.

    God is just, even if he decides to destroy all men, just as he did in Noah’s day. But to punish them for eternity for not doing something that we are as Adam’s descendents were never able to do is an unjust concept. When one is punished for not doing something, it stands to reason that that person had to be able but chose not to.

    And we are saved by grace through faith. Be reasonable, being a rocket scientist is not necessary to figure this one out.

    To believe precedes faith. How is it possible for one to have faith in something that he does not believe. Yet you say that faith gives us the ability to believe. Only in bible study would we twist something around like that, and then only to make the bible say something that it does not say…

    Hitler had a race of chosen ones, (he also was sovereign) so he chose the ones that he wanted; and look at what he did to the rest.

    Strong words, but can you see a similarity between what Hitler did and what your doctrine accuses God of doing.

    It is a lie, far be it from God to do such a thing. He has the sovereign right to do so, and no man can stay his hand, but he is a just and loving God. There is not a single man ever created that God wants to save so bad that he would stoop to such doings…

    My faith, for the record is of God. But God did not give it to me at the cost of billions of lives in torment in eternity. The faith that God gave me does not have the blood of my brothers and sisters on it.

    The fuel that fires my faith is love, not random destruction. Millions were not sent to hell just to make room for me in heaven. My Father did not love me and hate my brothers and sisters. He commanded that I love them, because he loved them….

    Once again you magnify the fact that your theology does not work. First you say that God chose based on nothing that he saw in man. Now you say that God looked forward in time and saw their faith. Well, which is it, did he elect based on faith, with/without efficacious grace. You said, “No help from him”. Yet you say that God gave faith according to the mystery of his will without any merit in man..

    Are all Calvinists this confused……
     
  14. tyndale1946

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    Chappie the written gospel does not have the power to save a single soul only from error!... Hear the words from Jesus Christ own mouth... John 5: 39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

    Eternal life and is not in the written gospel but in the Living Gospel. No matter what version you read KJV... NIV... RSV... NASB... ASV... Textus Receptus... NKJV... None can give you eternal life as the eternal life is in Jesus Christ and him alone!... His work alone... His grace alone... His Faith alone... His justification and sanctification alone... His sacrifice alone... We are the sinners... And he is our Savior!... AMEN on what Primitive Baptist and Pinoybaptist wrote!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  15. pinoybaptist

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    Hello, again, Chappie:
    you said:
    Where is the proof-text that God divinely decreed that man is unable to accept God ? I don't think any of my Primitive Baptist brethren or the Calvinist brethren here ever said that ?
    :confused:

    Also, you said:
    Neither does their blood taint my salvation. The faith that I have has the blood of the Lamb on it.
    Well, you are right. God did not send millions to hell to make room for you in heaven, because, to be blunt, who do you think you are ? A pearl ?
    If God were to extract justice from you, or from any man, no one deserves to be in His presence.
    Be thankful instead of continually bringing God down to your level of love and thinking. [​IMG]
     
  16. ForumChaplain

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    I do believe that I said, "Power of God unto salvation".

    Rom 1:16
    16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (KJV)

    Not salvation, power unto salvation...
     
  17. pinoybaptist

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    Chappie said:
    Well, Chappie, if this discussion were in oral instead of written form you may get by with twisting words, but as it is, it is in written form, so take a good look again at the quote, and read it word for word.
    Even a jungleman just learning English will see that I was speaking of Arminians and not Calvinists.
    I think you are confused, but at 12:26 a.m. when you posted your reply, I guess I can understand your confusion. Take a little strong black coffee with no sugar or cream.
    That way your comprehension will stay sharp.
    [​IMG] :D
     
  18. ForumChaplain

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    Where is the proof-text that God divinely decreed that man is unable to accept God ? I don't think any of my Primitive Baptist brethren or the Calvinist brethren here ever said that ?
    :confused:

    2)Also, you said:
    Neither does their blood taint my salvation. The faith that I have has the blood of the Lamb on it.
    3) Well, you are right. God did not send millions to hell to make room for you in heaven, because, to be blunt, who do you think you are ? A pearl ?
    If God were to extract justice from you, or from any man, no one deserves to be in His presence.
    Be thankful instead of continually bringing God down to your level of love and thinking. [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]1) I never said that this doctrine is taught in the bible, but it is taught by many Calvinist. I am not able to perfectly tailor my responses to what you believe, I am learning but as of now I am not privy to that information. Efficacious grace teaches that man is incapable of ever accepting God, hence the need for eg..

    2) Well, I certainly can praise God for that..

    3) What kind of pearl do I think I am. My point exactly. What kind of pearl thinks that of all the billions of people that has ever lived, God chose them over all those that he did not choose. Then they walk around without scriptural proof of their salvation praising God for what he supposedly did for them while billions are burning. And in order to feel saved, they cast God in the light of being an unjust, power hungry respecter of persons.
     
  19. ForumChaplain

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    Well, Chappie, if this discussion were in oral instead of written form you may get by with twisting words, but as it is, it is in written form, so take a good look again at the quote, and read it word for word.
    Even a jungleman just learning English will see that I was speaking of Arminians and not Calvinists.
    I think you are confused, but at 12:26 a.m. when you posted your reply, I guess I can understand your confusion. Take a little strong black coffee with no sugar or cream.
    That way your comprehension will stay sharp.
    [​IMG] :D
    </font>[/QUOTE]Do you have an issue with Junglemen that you are unable to resolve. I suppose that you do not consider that you suffer from junglelitius. Whatever impediment that you think that junglemen have, it is obviously contagious; as I can see that you are exhibiting some of the symptoms. Or perhaps you are just a victim of a poor choice of words. Yea, that's it... Poor choice of words..

    Oh, btw, i am not overly impressed with those fellas that you were really talking about either.
     
  20. russell55

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    Chappie,

    Just a couple quick comments on your reply to me.
    First of all, I think you are misunderstanding the word "paradox". A paradox isn't something that is actually contradictory, but something that APPEARS to be contradictory. The trinity is a good example of a paradox. We can't understand exactly how God can be three and yet one. The statement of the trinity APPEARS to be contradictory. And yet we believe it to be true, and noncontradictory, because we believe it to be a correct representation of what we see in scripture.

    God is indeed a paradox, and a mystery, but He is not contradictory. Actually, I don't know how we can expect finite minds to understand the infinite without there being some "mystery"--something left over that we can't wrap our minds around.

    Of course. But what does God being just mean to you? I don't think we are defining the word the same way.

    I think that God's justice refers to us getting from Him what we deserve. Those who don't believe, in the end, receive justice from Him, because their sins get from him exactly what they merit--eternal punishment. Those who believe don't get justice, but mercy. We don't get the eternal punishment that we deserve, because God, in his mercy, sent Christ to take upon himself the condemnation that our sins justly deserve. But in order for God to be just in not punishing believers for their sins, Christ had to come as a propitiatory sacrifice. That is what I see God's being just refering to. (See Romans 3:25,26)

    From what I can glean from your posts, you see God's being just to mean that God treats everyone equally. Would that be a fair assessment? If so, can you explain how you come up with that definition, and post any scripture that supports that definition of justice?

    [ September 13, 2002, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]
     

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