Why did God choose Judah and not Joseph?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by evangelist6589, Dec 17, 2013.

  1. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589
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    Judah was chosen to be the line for Messiah and not Joseph which puzzles me, as I recall Joseph is a main hero of Genesis and not Judah. Can someone explain the why here? What did Joseph do that was not worthy of the line for Messiah?
     
  2. Scarlett O.

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    Joseph was Jacob's favorite, not God's favorite. God doesn't play favorites. God does have an elect, but that not the same as how Jacob viewed and treated Joseph.

    Joseph had a plan for his life that God ordained for him and he fulfilled it.

    If you are asking why Judah, you should be asking why not Reuben or Simeon. They were in line ahead of Judah.

    It was just God's choice. Neither man did nor did not "do" something wrong or right.

    Judah being an ancestor of Jesus doesn't make him more or less worthy of any man. Genealogies don't make one worthy.
     
  3. drfuss

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    I have also wondered the same thing. Only God knows.

    Joseph was sort of the hero of Genises; and he was rewarded two of the 12 tribes of Israel. Both of his tribes went with the other eight tribes, thereby no longer worshipping at the temple as directed by the law.

    Levi was claimed by God in place of the first born of the twelve tribes, and was not considered one of the twelve tribes.

    Again, we do not know why God chose Judah.
     
  4. JonC

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    I am not so sure that Joseph is the main character of the story. For example, Judah goes from a very troubled state to being willing to sacrifice his own freedom or die so that Benjamin could return to his father. Joseph is instrumental in God’s plan to save Israel. But it is Judah’s character that illustrates a transformation.

    I don’t think that either possessed characteristics that would make them worthy of the line for Messiah. Ultimately, this was God’s choosing. He chose Judah for one purpose and Joseph for another.
     
  5. Deacon

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    Judah was assumed the firstborne birthright because his older brothers disqualified themselves.

    Despite a separation from his family and the disgraceful episode with Tamar, Judah was not disqualified; perhaps because he recognized and confessed his weakness (Gen 38:26).

    Joseph however was honored with the first-borne son's double portion – the blessing of Manasseh and Ephraim.

    Rob
     
  6. OldRegular

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    I suppose He chose Judah for the same reason He chose Jacob and called him Israel!
     
  7. kyredneck

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    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1853092#post1853092
     
  8. percho

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    I think the scepter went to Judah because Ruben defiled his fathers's bed and the birthright went to Joseph the firstborn of Rachel.
     
  9. percho

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    I copied from that post.

    FYI / FWIW, it is consistent throughout the scriptures that it's actually the second born that obtains the favor of God, not the firstborn, i.e., Cain/Abel, Shem/Japheth, Ishmael/Isaac, Essau/Jacob, Mannassah/Ephraim, First/Second Wilderness Generations, Saul/David, First Covenant/Second Covenant, First Man Adam/Second Adam (and doubtless many others):

    I find that interesting, especially because it began with Cain and Abel, with the elder killing the younger and this transpired with these two being the first children born after Adam and Eve became dead in trespasses and sins by eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

    Why did the younger die?

    Cain was born and Eve said, " I have gotten a man from the LORD."
    Abel is born and is favored by God and Cain kills him.
    It also appears to me that Seth is born as a replacement for Abel.

    Gen 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

    It is reiterated that Cain killed Abel the favored of God and that Seth is replacement seed for Abel. Yes or No?

    Now I am going to show a couple of verses that I would like opinions on and I do this with no intention of opening a bag of worms.

    Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS. Matt 1:18-25


    Could it have been that Eve should have born a child as a virgin but Satan deceived her and the temptation resulted in Adam knowing her before either she had been conceived or even after she had conceived resulting in Cain killing Abel.

    Reversing the order of preeminence.

    1 John 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
    Prov 30:20 Such is the way of an adulterous woman; she eateth, and wipeth her mouth, and saith, I have done no wickedness.

    Would this have resulted in the Christ as he firstborn from the dead.
     
    #9 percho, Dec 17, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 17, 2013
  10. evangelist6589

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    That may be the only explanation because I have failed to find much written about Judah in the OT.
     
  11. evangelist6589

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    Joseph is not the main character of the story? He is always the one that is preached on when I hear the message being taught.
     
    #11 evangelist6589, Dec 18, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 18, 2013
  12. evangelist6589

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    What verses teach this?
     
  13. kyredneck

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    ????

    23 There was at the table reclining in Jesus` bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved. Jn 13

    26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Jn 19

    2 She runneth therefore, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we know not where they have laid him.
    Jn 20

    7 That disciple therefore whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. So when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his coat about him (for he was naked), and cast himself into the sea.
    20 Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; who also leaned back on his breast at the supper, and said, Lord, who is he that betrayeth thee? Jn 21
     
  14. JonC

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    If this were a stand-stand alone fictional short story, then I’d say Joseph is the main character (although he is somewhat a static character when compared to Judah).

    I could be wrong, but I had always viewed the story as one depicting God’s deliverance of Israel. I had never thought of one person being the “main” character. Instead I’ve typically understood this as part of a larger picture. But I suppose when it comes to sermons, they are typically based on Joseph. However, I have heard a couple that centered on the transformation of Judah…and a couple of sermons that utilized the passage to illustrate God’s faithfulness.

    Again, that's just the way I have pictured the story of Joseph - as the deliverance and preservation of God's people and related to Genesis 15:13-14. That's not to say you are wrong that Joseph is a main character of the story, just that I've normally viewed it as part of the establishment of Israel.

    Perhaps Judah was chosen because people could see some merit in choosing Joseph. Maybe this was used to change Judah to one who was self-centered and self-serving to one who would sacrifice himself in place of his brother. I don't know...
     
  15. percho

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    Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright. For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the chief ruler; but the birthright was Joseph's: ) 1 Chro 5:1,2

    Looks like the birthright went to Joseph. I don't know if the chief ruler (scepter) was originally a part of the birthright or not.

    And Judah said unto Israel his father, Send the lad with me, and we will arise and go; that we may live, and not die, both we, and thou, and also our little ones. I will be surety for him; of my hand shalt thou require him: if I bring him not unto thee, and set him before thee, then let me bear the blame for ever:

    Maybe that is when Judah prevailed above his brothers. I do not know.
     
    #15 percho, Dec 18, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 18, 2013
  16. Scarlett O.

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    Jesus isn't calling this person "the beloved". The author of John is calling himself beloved by Jesus.

    Jesus loved all of His disciples. I think the author is just expressing humility.
     
  17. quantumfaith

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    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
     

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