Why do large groups of Christians always seem to fall for such frauds?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by mioque, Jul 22, 2005.

  1. mioque

    mioque
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2003
    Messages:
    3,899
    Likes Received:
    0
    Mike Warnke
    In 1973, a new book appeared in the Christian press that purported to be Warnke's life story. "The Satan Seller" was written by Warnke with help from David Balsiger, another Christian author. The novel told the story of Warnke's orphaned childhood and his introduction into Satanism by a mysterious acquaintance from college named "Dean Anderson". The book then details Warnke's descent into sexual orgies, alcoholism, and drug dealing. He then ascended in the ranks of Satanism to the level of 'high priest.' Warnke is later removed from his perch by an attempted murder - a heroin overdose - that leaves him angry and disillusioned. He then joins the U.S. Navy, goes to Vietnam, and comes home as an evangelist. The story ends with Warnke happily married to Sue Studer in California.
    Warnke never provided even one eyewitness who knew him to be a Satanist despite his claim that there were over 1500 members in his coven. In June 1992, "Cornerstone" released the story at the annual Bookseller's Convention in Dallas. Initial response to the article was overwhelmingly against Warnke, but Word Records stated they would stand by their artist. Finally, with pressure building, Word fired Warnke from its label. On September 30, 1992, Warnke Ministries closed its doors. The fall came less than 100 days after the startling revelations hit the media.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Warnke

    Rebecca Brown&Elaine&Daniel Michael Yoder
    Dr. Rebecca Brown is one of several Christian authors who claim to have been involved with underground Satanic cults. Dr. Brown describes her experiences in books published by Jack Chick publications. Dr. Brown's claims are particularly extreme because she claims to have had physical contact with demons, devils and Satan himself.
    http://answers.org/satan/brown.html
    http://www.geocities.com/paulblizard/brown.html
    http://prattle.antipope.org/autumn98/brown2.html
     
  2. mioque

    mioque
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2003
    Messages:
    3,899
    Likes Received:
    0
    Leo Taxil
    Taxil underwent a public, feigned conversion to Roman Catholicism, and announced his intention of repairing the damage he had done to the true faith. His real intent, however, was to publically slander the Freemasons (who had rejected him for membership), and simultaneously embarrass the Roman Catholic Church.

    The first book produced by Taxil after his conversion was a four-volume history of Freemasonry, which contained fictitious eyewitness verifications of their participation in Satanism. With a collaborator who published as "Dr. Karl Hacks," Taxil wrote another book called the Devil in the Nineteenth Century, which introduced a new character "Diana Vaughan," a supposed descendant of the Rosicrucian alchemist Thomas Vaughan. The book contained many implausible tales about her encounters with incarnate demons, one of whom was supposed to have written prophecies on her back with its tail, and another played the piano in the shape of a crocodile.

    She was involved in Satanic freemasonry, but was redeemed when one day she professed admiration for Joan of Arc, at whose name the demons were put to flight. As Diana Vaughan, Taxil published a book called Eucharistic Novena, a collection of prayers which were praised by the Pope.

    On April 19, 1897, Taxil called a press conference at which he announced he would introduce Diana Vaughan to the press. He announced that he had forged the letter, and that all of his other revelations about the Freemasons were fictitious. He thanked the clergy for their assistance in giving publicity to his wild claims. The hoax material is still used to slander Freemasons to this day. Chick Publications publishes such a tract called The Curse of Baphomet.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxil_hoax
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Taxil

    Alberto Rivera
    his own story is that he was born in Spain and educated at a Catholic seminary. He claims to have been sent to destroy various Protestant organizations and discredit Protestant leaders, before becoming disillusioned upon finding that the Vatican was behind Freemasonry. He claims that he exposed the Catholic Church at an Ecumenical Conferrence in 1967 at a stadium in Costa Rica to 50,000 people. He claims that the Jesuits sent him to a top-secret location in Spain (then ruled by the Franco dicatorship) to make him recant his faith. According to Rivera, he was tortured and put on drugs until he nearly died. He claims that he was put into an iron lung because his lungs had broken down. But nearly at death, he claims that he asked Jesus to forgive him and then Jesus set him free. He then claims that he flew to London and rescued his sister, a nun, after she nearly died in a convent.

    According to Rivera, Jesuits are responsible for the recession, communism, Nazism, the World Wars, the Jonestown Massacre, and the assassination of Abraham Lincoln, for which Jack Chick takes Rivera as an authority. Some of these claims are that the Catholic Church justifies homosexuality and abortion, that the Charismatic Movement is a front for the Catholic Church, that the Popes are antichrists, that the Catholic Church is the Whore of Revelation, and that the Prophet Muhammad was used by the Catholic Church to create Islam and destroy the Jews and Christians.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberto_Rivera
     
  3. mioque

    mioque
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2003
    Messages:
    3,899
    Likes Received:
    0
    John Todd
    John Todd, a young "evangelist," has gained a growing following, both here and abroad. He claims to have intimate knowledge of an international conspiracy to take over the world. The conspiracy is supposedly led by a high order of witches called the Illuminati,' in which virtually every major Christian leader and organization is involved. The suspicion and distrust this has created is almost unbelievable.
     
    A sampling of the Christian leaders who are supposedly involved in the conspiracy include: C. S. Lewis, Billy Graham, Pat Robertson-700 Club, Jim Bakker-PTL Club, Oral Roberts, Ralph Wilkerson, Demos Shakarian, Chuck Smith, Walter Martin, Gordon Lindsey, Morris Curello, Andrae Crouch, Pat and Debbie Boone, Evie Tornquist, Honeytree, and churches of all kinds from Assemblies of God to the Southern Baptists, (Let us remember that God has warned us: "Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses." [1 Tim. 5:19] )
     
    So, how did he receive this knowledge of a "conspiracy" and what is the message of John Todd? Let's hear John's story from his own material (his booklet Surviving Till the Trumpet).
     
    "John Todd was born into a witchcraft family. John's real family name was Collins. The family name was changed from Collins to Todd shortly after the turn of the 20th century to avoid identification . . . Collins is the second most (un) holy name in witchcraft. John was initiated into witchcraft at 14 years of age . . . At 18 he was made a high priest and was in charge of his own coven. He requested permission to join the military so he could establish witch covens at military bases ... He was sent to Vietnam where he fought as a Green Beret.
     
    "After finishing his duty in Vietnam he was sent to Germany. While there, John got into an argument with the officer who had been over him in Vietnam. This led to a pistol fight in which the officer was killed . . . On May 1, 1971, John was initiated to become a Grand Druid High Priest. He was given a thirteen-state area to administer. He established his headquarters in San Antonio, Texas. He states that over 90% of politicians in that thirteen-state area received financial support from him and took orders regarding political decisions from him . . . On August 1, 1972 he saw a chart giving the plan for world takeover."
     
    The plans included electing Jimmy Carter president. The president was then to enact the following laws:
     
    1. New Gun Law to take away guns  from citizens.
    2. Removal of tax exemption from  churches.
    3. Genocide Act. (If you convert someone from another religion to your religion, then you are tried for murder.)
    4. Presidential Martial Law Powers.
    5. The Anti-hoarding Act." (Outlaws all food and medical supplies from being stored)
     
    World War III-Caused by Israel State battling over petrol, farmlands and chemicals, “ Plans for America . . . Calling for Helter Skelter.' (All trucks, trains, and ships stop. Charles Manson leads army of some 200,000 white prisoners and motorcycle club members to create mass insanity in the streets 6 months after his release by bombing churches, raping, murdering and other fear tactics.) ... Destroy the monetary system. (All money, etc. becomes worthless) . . . Destroy all cropland. 'There will be nothing south of the Mason-Dixon line over two inches high to the Rocky Mountains.' . . .
     
    "To make a long story short, John found himself on his knees at about 2 a.m. on Labor Day morning at a- coffee house, " where John received Christ as Savior.
     
    "In recent months John has given great emphasis to exposing the plans of the Illuminati for world takeover."
     
    Why is John saying these things? There are only three possibilities.
    1. What he says is true-and there fore of great importance.
    2. What he says he knows is falseand therefore he is using lies and his persuasive abilities for personal gain.
    3. What he says he believes to be true but is, in actuality, false; therefore he is deceived either by others or self (i.e., mentally disturbed.).
     
    Is what he says true? Todd makes so many statements it would be impossible to examine them all. But what he says can be divided into two categories, that which can be verified and that which cannot. You determine the overall trustworthiness of a witness's testimony in the areas which cannot be verified by whether or not the witness is trustworthy in the areas that can be verified. Thus, if John can be shown trustworthy concerning verifiable things, we should be very careful to deny his statements concerning the nonverifiable. But if he is found untrustworthy concerning verifiable things, such as his own background, we would be foolish indeed to continue to believe his claimed knowledge of a conspiracy.
     
    Is there reason to believe John is giving us false testimony? Yes; the only difficulty lies in knowing where to begin. Let's examine some rather significant discrepancies.
     
    Concerning Todd's military history, he claims to have served as a Green Beret in Vietnam. But when one examines his military discharge papers there are no such records. Rather, he served as a general clerk/ typist one year, five months and days. (The Todd Phenomenon, or JTP, Darryl Hicks and David Lewis, 1979, p. 54-55)
     
    Regarding his story of the shooting and killing of an officer in Germany, again no such records exist. Rather, the records indicate that after having re-enlisted for four years in Kansas,Todd went to Germany serving 4 months and 12 days. The stated reason for his discharge was classified as "Character and mental behavior disorder." (JTP, p. 55-56)
     
    Other discrepancies include the testimony of his former wife (a Christian) who claims that he "did not begin to speak about the Illuminati until after hearing of it on tapes, following his conversion. He had his ex-wife, Sharon research the subject for him in the library [note: the Santa Ana Library]. Everything Todd says about the Illuminati can be gotten from books, except his references to Philip Rothschild and his attacks on Christian leaders." (JTP, p. 26)
     
    A classic example of his habitual lying would be an incident at The Faith Baptist Church of Canoga Park. The incident started when a member of the church by the name of Mike Griffin had been given a tape by Todd. The tape was a recording of a newscast covering a meeting Todd had conducted in Ventura, Ca. But the tape had been used by Todd before, and on the end of the tape was a recording of a class John had given while he was managing an occult bookstore in Dayton, Ohio. Todd was teaching witchcraft and the date mentioned was "March 3, 1976." An excerpt from the tape included the following: "One reason witchcraft, I feel, is more powerful than Christianity, is it's got about 8,000 years up on it. It's got billions of people believing in it over that period of time. Christianity is a very new religion."

    http://www.cornerstonemag.com/pages/show_page.asp?437
     
  4. mioque

    mioque
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2003
    Messages:
    3,899
    Likes Received:
    0
    Lauren Stratford
    Lauren Stratford was the alias under which Laurel Rose Willson, an American woman from Washington State, wrote three books, the most famous of which was Satan's Underground, purporting to tell a true story of her upbringing in a Satanic cult. After an investigation by the Christian magazine Cornerstone demonstrated that Stratford's story was false, Laurel Willson created another false identity with a horrific story to tell, pretending to be Laura Grabowski, a Jewish survivor of Auschwitz-Birkenau. Interestingly, one of the things that led to the exposure of "Laura Grabowski" was her befriending Binjamin Wilkomirski and claiming to remember him from the camps, when Wilkomirski himself (real name Bruno Grosjean) turned out to be neither Jewish nor a Holocaust survivor.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauren_Stratford
     
  5. av1611jim

    av1611jim
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2002
    Messages:
    3,511
    Likes Received:
    0
    Why?
    Because fleshy carnal christians WANT to believe the sensationalists. This mindset, (I believe) stems from the early days of the reformation. In those days the RCC WAS very evil. This fueled the Anti-Christ fever.
    It hasn't stopped. People WANT to believe they "got the goods" on the current "powers that be", thereby being able to identify exactly WHERE Anti-Christ will come from.

    (As if they will be able to DO anything to stop him!)

    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
  6. mioque

    mioque
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2003
    Messages:
    3,899
    Likes Received:
    0
    William Schnoebelen
    William ('Bill') Schnoebelen is an American Fundamentalist Christian who claims that he was once a Satanist.
    A more easily verified criticism is that the sheer number of activities in which Schnoebelen and his associates claim him to have been involved (often, involved in depth) stretches belief. According to the biography on his own page[5], Schnoebelen's curriculum vitae includes:

    * Sixteen years as a teacher of witchcraft, Qabalah and ceremonial magick
    * Seven years in the Church of Satan
    * Nine years as a Freemason
    * Five years as a Mormon, where he held "numerous offices, including elders' quorum president"
    * A degree in music and education (1971, Loras College)
    * Master's degree in theological studies (1980, St. Francis School of Pastoral Ministry; this is a Catholic seminary[6])
    * Master's degree in counseling (Liberty University, 1990)
    * Nearly thirty years of research into UFO phenomena
    * Ability as "a Naturopathic doctor, a Nutritional Herbologist and a Certified Natural Health Professional". [While Iowa does not license naturopathic doctors, the N.D. degree typically requires four years of graduate school study and intensive clinical experience[7].]


    According to a timeline[8] offered by Schnoebelen's friend Ed Decker, Schnoebelen became a 'Witch' in 1968; a 'Witch High Priest' in 1973; joined the Church of Satan in 1975; became a Master Mason in 1976; a ' Gnostic Catholic (sic) Bishop' in 1978; joined 'Palladium Masonry' in 1979; obtained his Master's Degree in Theology in 1980; joined the Latter Day Saints Church in 1980 and first attended LDS Temple in 1981, becoming a LDS Quorum President in 1982 and an Institute Teacher in 1983, before 'getting saved' on June 22, 1984.

    Among other things, Schnoebelen has also reputedly claimed to have ordained women as a Roman Catholic bishop[9], and to have become a high priest in four different Wiccan traditions in just two years[10].

    The dates given in Schnoebelen's books create several apparent conflicts with his biography. For instance, in Masonry: Beyond the Light, Schnoebelen claims that he was a Mormon and a Mason when he was 'saved' in mid-1984; this implies that either he was already a member of both in 1980 when he was studying theology at a Catholic seminary, or his claim of "five years" as a Mormon was exaggerated. In Wicca: Satan's Little White Lie, Schnoebelen reputedly claims that "Up to our departure from the city of Milwaukee in 1984, we were presiding over one of the oldest and largest networks of covens" - implying that before his conversion in that year he was simultaneously a Mormon, a Mason, and a Wiccan. Even if this is true, it would lead many to question the mental state of Schnoebelen.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Schnoebelen
     
  7. mioque

    mioque
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2003
    Messages:
    3,899
    Likes Received:
    0
    Maria Monk
    In January 1836 Maria Monk published a book titled Awful Disclosures in which she exposed various scandalous events that, according to her, had occurred at the Hotel Dieu convent in Montreal. Her central claim was that convent nuns were having sexual relations with priests from the neighboring seminary who supposedly entered the convent through a secret tunnel. All babies born of these illicit encounters, Monk claimed, were baptized before being killed and dumped in a lime pit in the basement of the convent. Maria Monk said that she had lived in the convent for a total of seven years before becoming pregnant by a priest. Being unable to bear the thought of having her child killed and dumped in the basement, she had finally fled.

    A New York City newspaper editor, Col. William Leete Stone, asked the Bishop for permission to investigate with a team of protestants. The bishop granted his request, and in October 1836 Stone led a team around the convent. With Maria Monk's book in hand, he compared her description of the convent's interior with the convent itself. He found very little correspondence between the two, however he was not allowed to see the nun's rooms or the basement area and had to return to New York City, his investigation unfinished.
    Col. Stone later obtained permission to see the entire convent and, on the basis of this fuller investigation, concluded that there was no evidence that Maria Monk "had ever been within the walls of the cloister."
    http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/mariamonk.html
     
  8. Matt Black

    Matt Black
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2003
    Messages:
    9,141
    Likes Received:
    0
    You might want to add Carroll and Mosheim to the list, as large numbers of BBmembers seem to have fallen for their nonsense

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  9. Charles Meadows

    Charles Meadows
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2003
    Messages:
    2,276
    Likes Received:
    0
    People are people.

    They will never cease to disappoint.
     
  10. Lamin Dibba

    Lamin Dibba
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2005
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    0
    The real shame of all this is that Warnke could have been a great asset to God's Kingdom. I saw him twice in person, once at Pearl Harbor, HI, and the other time in New Orleans. He was a mesmerizing story-teller. If he had only been a truthful story-teller! :( Of course, his private life would also have to match his speaking ministry as well and, as we know, that didn't happen.

    Why did we listen to him . . . because he was GOOD at what he did. Sadly, he was not as personally good as his performances were.

    Every blessing,
    LD
     
  11. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    3,458
    Likes Received:
    0
    mioque,

    Are you a Freemason? Because if you are, I would add that to the list of people falling for frauds.
     
  12. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    17,527
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree! [​IMG]
     
  13. mioque

    mioque
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2003
    Messages:
    3,899
    Likes Received:
    0
    Matt
    I think that JM Carroll and Johann Lorenz von Mosheim are a bit different.
    Both (especially von Mosheim) had real, reasonably distinguished careers not based on the spread of their more nonsensical ideas.
    Both were basically sane, while the 10 I listed (with the possible exception of Taxil) all seem to have suffered from some psychological, or neurological defect. They might be considered victims of their pathological urge to fabricate lies as well as frauds.
    Finally, basically everybody on this board will agree that the 10 I listed weren't telling the truth, while a considerable minority around here still believes the tall tales put forth by Carroll, Alexander Hislop or Charles Chiniquy.
     
  14. mioque

    mioque
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2003
    Messages:
    3,899
    Likes Received:
    0
    Claudia_T
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    What gave you that peculiar idea?

    ps. No I'm not. Never was, nor is anybody in my family or in my church.
     
  15. rsr

    rsr
    Expand Collapse
    <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2001
    Messages:
    10,071
    Likes Received:
    101
    mioque said:

    "Finally, basically everybody on this board will agree that the 10 I listed weren't telling the truth ... "

    I've run across some who won't.

    Interesting most on your list have some connection with Jack Chick ...
     
  16. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    17,527
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have never heard of these people. I will have to check them out.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  17. Helen again

    Helen again
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2005
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    There are several reasons people fall for people like those above:

    1. Because true Christians still like to hear stories of God's grace and mercy. And we still like to laugh. I loved the Warnke tapes until I found he was a fraud. Then all I could feel was terribly sad.

    2. Because a great many people claiming to be Christian are not followers of Jesus, just using His name (in vain). Therefore they are ripe for any fraud which appeals to them in one way or another.

    3. Because sensationalism sells and supposedly reputable Christian publications and mc's and hosts support and present these frauds.

    By the way, I figure you must be Roman Catholic because you included Hislop on your list. I have read Two Babylons and I would like to say here that I have rarely read anything as well researched and presented. He was no fraud. His research was impeccable. Nor did he ask for money or fame or anything else. He simply presented what he had found. If you are Roman Catholic, however, of course you will hate him and what he exposed.
     
  18. D28guy

    D28guy
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2002
    Messages:
    2,713
    Likes Received:
    0
    Helen,

    I've found that its generally a normal Catholic practice to viciously attack the author of any book that presents the truth about Catholicism. I guess thats a whole lot easier than actually refuting what they share.

    Hislop, Dave Hunt, T.A. McMahon, Mary Ann Collins, etc etc. All have very effectual and fruitful ministries devoted to proclaiming liberating truth for those caught in the web of Catholicism and its very foundational and sometimes damning idolatries and heresies.

    God bless,

    Mike
     
  19. mioque

    mioque
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2003
    Messages:
    3,899
    Likes Received:
    0
    rsr
    Chick seems to have a humongous blindspot when it comes to pathological liars. At least as long as they spin their tales about groups he already distrusts anyway. Either that or he knows that flamboyance sells in the comics industry. ;)
     
  20. mioque

    mioque
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2003
    Messages:
    3,899
    Likes Received:
    0

Share This Page

Loading...