Why do non-catholics speak against Mary

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by thessalonian, Jun 6, 2003.

  1. thessalonian

    thessalonian
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    This thread is going to start with a bit of a perspective that you have not likely seen before. I may even use the Bible for the heart of my arguement. Yes, viginia, Catholics do read the Bible. I see about 120 posts in the last couple of days on the issue of Mary and how we Catholics allegedly worship her. There are websites all over that speak of how horrible and idolatrous this Catholic practice is. Some to the point of clearly being uncharitable toward us. Much of the time misrepresenting it of course.

    We have seen in the past few days arguements that we can't pray to saints because it is not done in the Bible. We can't serve Mary because it is not spoken of in the Bible.

    Here is the problem. I was reading Acts 19 the other day and ran in to something kind of stange. Paul and his cohorts are in Ephesus. Now the most important god/goddess of Ephesus is Artemis, virgin goddess, goddess of the hunt, goddess of children from what I can tell on the net. They kind of tick off the local idol maker. By speaking directly against Artemis? Nope. In fact it explictly states that they do not speak against her.

    Acts 19:37
    "For you have brought these men here who are neither robbers of temples nor blasphemers of our goddess.

    Perhaps Paul was afraid to speak about her. That is interesting because they actually have to hold him back from going there while his friends are actually in the midst of a riot. What has caused this riot?

    He says one thing that gets the idol makers goat.

    Acts 19:26
    "You see and hear that not only in Ephesus, but in almost all of Asia, this Paul has persuaded and turned away a considerable number of people, saying that gods made with hands are no gods at all.

    and the idol maker gets the people whipped up against him because he has seen a big droppoff in his business.
    Apparently he has been focusing on preaching the positive truths of Christ from the Gospel. There is more underlying this story and the Catholic way of evangelization but I want to see what you non-Catholics have to say. Surely worship of Artemis, which was actual worship, as in they thought there statues of her brought rain and sun and children, etc. etc. was rampant. So why did Paul not directly address it. In fact I cannot see one place in the NT where he directly speaks against a local god/goddess and in that day there were many. In acts 17 he actually speaks of their religiousity and uses one of there Gods in a positive way, speaking of it to explain his God, the true God.


    So how do you Protestants spin this?
    Would Paul on his website today have railings and misrepresentations of Catholic Marian theology?
    Would he write on message boards against it?
    Did he not have to deal with idolatry at that time and so did not give us good ways of dealing with it so that we must come up with them ourselves? (Ya right)

    Now of course you will all use the Bible to support your answers. Please do try and stay on topic. I know that will be hard for you.

    Looking forward to a lively discussion.

    Blessings

    [ June 06, 2003, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: thessalonian ]
     
  2. thessalonian

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    Let's keep this up top for a bit.
     
  3. Briguy

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    Thess. I think the audience is key here. When non-cathoilics address Catholics about mary they are addressing folks who claim that Jesus is the center of their worship and faith. Therefore, there is a certain standard expected.

    As for Paul his was a pagan audience who "worshipped many gods and made no "claim" to Christ at all.

    Paul certainly was one who was as harmless as a dove but wise as a serpent, so the scripture goes.


    Secondly, For a lot of us who try to down play Mary it is because of our passion for jesus. We do not want to share what we have with Jesus and what he did for us with anyone. Not in the witnessing sense of course but in the personal relationship sense, "Three is a crowd" [​IMG]
    Remember us non-Catholic believers do not have the same understanding of Mary as you do, we see your belief as her intruding. Just my spin anyway.
    Hope you are well. Thanks for your Christ-like demeaner her on the BB.

    In Christian Love,
    Brian
     
  4. thessalonian

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    Briguy,

    Interesting rationalization. I don't see alot of scriptural evidence in your post however. How do you specifically know that is what Paul was thinking here since I don't see it anywhere in Acts 19? Earlier this morning I was criticized for arguing from silence on the throne of Mary (though I have not used the queens of the OT davidic kings yet). Perhaps you have a verse somewhere that says: "Well if they claim to be Christ centered but give respect to others besides Christ then hit them between the eyes with a 2X4"? Now that would be passion. Or perhaps your version of the Bible has something in Acts 19 that says that Paul was thinking along the lines that you have suggested.

    "Secondly, For a lot of us who try to down play Mary it is because of our passion for jesus. We do not want to share what we have with Jesus and what he did for us with anyone."

    Paul had no passion for Christ? These people were worshipping a false God! Surely he would have shown some passion here if that is the way to handle the situation. By the way I think a good percentage of Protestants, expecially those on those message boards would consider us pagans. You are much more liberal on the issue so I don't think your post sheds a whole lot of light on the subject. But thanks anyway .

    By the way, I don't see your posts as a great violation of what I am getting at as you are much more charitable in these matters than the vast majority of non-catholics.

    Blessings
     
  5. thessalonian

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    Any more takers?
     
  6. Eladar

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    Perhaps it was because they did not claim to be Christian. God, through Paul, made it clear that we are not to judge those who do not claim to be Christian.

    1 Corinthians 5:9-13

    I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
     
  7. Lorelei

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    They seemed to know that Paul did indeed speak against man-made gods, that is what the entire uproar was about. You may not believe that Paul felt that way, but those who heard him and knew of him personally knew exactly how he felt. Paul beleived that "man-made gods are no gods at all. "

    Why did Paul not address this? Read a few verses later, it tells us why.

    I think someone else spoke well when they said Paul knew that without Christ it didn't matter if they believed in them or not. We can only judge those within. Paul said this:

    For us there is but one God. These other so-calledgods are irrelevant to the Christian. Win them to Christ and they will see the error of serving what they made.

    He did use the unknown God to begin to share the gospel, but he also told them this was ignorance no longer excusable by God:

    As for Mary. When someone tried to give Mary honor while Jesus was alive, he replied in this way:

    It is not that we do not believe that Mary was blessed among women, but we are better to focus on hearing and obeying God's word. That is what Christ told us to do.

    ~Lorelei
     
  8. Ps104_33

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    With the exception of a very small handfull of dubious quotes from a couple of early fathers, all the fuss over Mary was unknown in the early church. Was she a great woman? No doubt about it. But there was a definite Oedipus complex eminating from someone somewhere along the line in church history that took off and stuck.

    This is long but here is Schaff:

    http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/5_ch16.htm
     
  9. Yelsew

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    Did Mary "fall from heaven"? That she should have a temple made for her? Most Catholic churches bear feminine names, such as "our lady of _______"
    Did Paul state anything about the idols that was not true? Graven images are not god's and have no power over anything, except perhaps as paper weights or boat anchors. Yet, the Catholic Church makes graven images of "the blessed virgin", and of "the Apostles"; doing essentially what the silversmiths of Ephesus were doing (by their fruits ye shall know them). So, the idea is "guilty by association" when you do what the pagans do, you are guilty of paganism. The fact that your god is 'different than' the god of the pagans, makes no difference, it is the practice that is contrary to the scriptures you profess to believe in.

    The catholic church assigns "powers" to Mary thus raising her to a position of "goddess". That is no different than the Ephesians assigning the "powers" of goddess of furtility and children to their beloved Dianna, or Artemus whose "statue fell from heaven".

    So, if the Ephesians are Idolators, the Catholics are likewise Idolators.

    I would love for you to prove me wrong, but I am sure that the Catholic church is not going to remove and destroy their "precious statuary", because the Catholic church remains staunchly Idolatrous.
     
  10. DHK

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    The result of believing:

    Acts 19:18,19
    18 And many that believed came, and confessed, and showed their deeds.
    19 Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.

    They gave their idolatry (deeds), curious arts, books, and burned them all. The natural consequence of believing is to do away with the idols in your life.
    DHK
     
  11. thessalonian

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    Perhaps it was because they did not claim to be Christian. God, through Paul, made it clear that we are not to judge those who do not claim to be Christian.

    1 Corinthians 5:9-13

    I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Well I could see where you might think that but it seems to me that this verse is in the context of Mt. 18.

    Matthew 18:15-18
    "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
    "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.
    "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.


    The context is that of removing an individual sinner from a community of believers. 1 Cor 5 starts of with a case of a scandal in which they have not removed an individual from the local Church in corinth:

    1 Corinthians 5:1
    It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife.

    Now you are applying it to a whole clase of people (i.e. Catholics). That seems like a strech to me. Further you already view us as separated and if we are not you definitely are not going through the formal process in Matt 18 of going about separating us. Finally, if you are going to take us before a Church as that verse seems to indicate, which Church? I am certainly not going to agree to go and sit before your board of elders. Sorry, but I think you have to be honest and acknowledge that in your application of this verse you are not rightly dividing the word. I'll be gone until Sunday but will try to say more on this verse you have cited when I come back.
     
  12. thessalonian

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    Thanks Psalm but you haven't dealt with the issue I raised. Why did Paul and his cohorts not rail against Artemis? He quite clearly said one thing and that one thing was only that a hunk of stone is not a God which I am in 100% agreement with.
     
  13. thessalonian

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    This is just turning out to be another Catholic bash thread as I suspected it would. You refuse to deal with the issue. Paul spoke nothing against Artemis.

    Acts 19:37
    "For you have brought these men here who are neither robbers of temples nor blasphemers of our goddess.

    If the way to go is to continuously speak things against Marian beliefs then why didn't he speak things about beliefs in Artemis?
     
  14. thessalonian

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    "Yet, the Catholic Church makes graven images of "the blessed virgin", and of "the Apostles"; doing essentially what the silversmiths of Ephesus were doing (by their fruits ye shall know them). "

    Now why didn't Paul go to the silversmith and condemn him if it was the making of an idol that was the problem? Catholic statues are not about having gods. And once again in Ex 20 we see the command against idols, yet in Ex 25 (that is after ex 20 for those keeping track) God commands them to make statues of angels. And if you think Catholics make statues for the purpose of worshiping them then you haven't read the council of trent.

    Gotta go.

    Blessings
     
  15. Yelsew

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    These winged creatures are certainly not statues that attempt to depict "the blessed virgin" And since Angels are extremely difficult to see with the human eye, these winged creatures are not necessarily "angels". These winged Creatures are adornments for the Mercy Seat.

    Poof!, there goes another Catholic myth!
     
  16. Lorelei

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    Because Artemis was just another one of many false goddesses. Paul was dealing with people worshipping false gods but who never claimed to be Christian gods.

    Your views on Mary are especially harmful because they are presented as teachings of Christ when they are not. Paul did get upset when people who proffessed to speak for Christ taught anything other than the truth! When people preached any other gospel than the one Paul preached he got extremely upset! So much so, that he said anyone doing so should be eternally condemned. (Read his letter to the Galatians)

    Though Mary was the mother of Jesus your worship of her goes against the very word of God you profess to proclaim.

    THAT is the difference.

    One is dealing with a lost person who never professes to know or worship Christ, the other is a false apostle masquerading as an angel of light.
    That is why non-catholics speak out against the unscriptural reverence Catholics give to Mary

    ~Lorelei
     
  17. Eladar

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    OK, let's put it in context.
    Yes, Paul was responding to scandal.
    No, I'm not applying it to a whole class of people. I am not saying that 1 Corinithians 5 says that Catholics are having sex with their father's wife. You don't seem to hear what I'm saying.
    No, I said that this was the reason why you don't see Paul explicitly going out and telling people to destroy their idols. Paul's letters deal with the Christian community, not with the pagan community.
    When you do, please base your argument on what I was talking about, not the strawman that you created. [​IMG]
     
  18. SolaScriptura in 2003

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    The persistence of ignorance requires the preacher to get more specific whereas a quick removal of ignorance allows him to avoid unneccesary specifics. The heathen that were receptive to the word, upon hearing the simple statement they be no gods, which are made with hands once broke their idols and turned to Christ, but the Catholics after hearing it many times resume their idolatrous prayers at their illegal altars which were erected to dead men and dead women who would (if they were able to) proclaim "Stand up; I myself also am a man" as Peter did when he was yet in this life (Acts 10:26), and who would also quote Deu 18:10-13 if they were able.

    Why did Paul not mention the specific name of the idol? It wasn't necessary: The heathen were able to understand a general message against idolatry and then apply it to specifics, but Catholics aren't even able to take a specific message against idolatry (Acts 10:26) and apply it to specifics! When ignorance abounds, so do specifics.

    [ June 06, 2003, 06:44 PM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura in 2003 ]
     
  19. BobRyan

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    This thread is going to start with a bit of a perspective that you have not likely seen before. I may even use the Bible for the heart of my arguement. Yes, viginia, Catholics do read the Bible.

    Are you teasing us with the idea that you might use "exegesis"?

    I am ready - go ahead. Any time.

    Except for that ugly bit about "Worshipping demons" when you serve/worship/associate with things related to false gods. 1Cor 10:20.

    But "yeah" if we don't count things like that.

    Your point seems to be "Why didn't Paul bash all the heathen all the time for their false gods-idols-incense and prayers to the dead etc" IF He really believed those people to be "sacrificing to demons" when worshipping idols?

    In John 16 Christ says "I have many more things to teach you but you CAN NOT bear them now".

    In Hebrews 5 Paul says that there is a "progression" of truth given EVEN to the saved and that each one must GROW to receive the "next truth".

    Your point that Paul's reluctance to bash the pagans for their images, worship, goddess worship and prayers to their goddess - should be some sort of "shelter" for Christian Caholics that choose idolotry in the form of mariolotry - is not working here.

    Primarily because your Bible argument is not holding up. Certainly you attempted no exegesis of Acts 19 showing "support" for idols - and service to the very ones Paul identified as "demons".

    But maybe that really doesn't matter in a Catholic system of belief. I wouldn't know.


    In Christ,

    Bob
     

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