Why do people go to hell? For sinning? For being born children of the devil?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by zrs6v4, Aug 3, 2012.

  1. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4
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    Explain the extremity of Gods eternal punishment?

    We know that people go to hell because of sin. God's justice is perfect therefore if He says that the penalty for sin is eternal hell then we can trust that He is judging perfectly. It seems lost people, when trying to understand how God can send someone to hell try to make a connection way to close to how they punish their children for doing wrong. They dont want to harm their children so the intent of the punishment is disciplinary. When God sends a soul to eternal punishment its intent is not correction but outright justice with no parole. Biblically lost people arent Gods children so He isnt trying to help them in the same sense. Thinking about this punishment:

    How would you explain why God sends someone to eternal hell for their sins?

    Focus on the extremity of the response by God. So why so extreme?

    im not a skeptic, my intent in this post is to see how people explain this for evangelistic purposes.
     
    #1 zrs6v4, Aug 3, 2012
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  2. A Faithful Sidekick

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    First: It seems extreme to our depraved natural minds, twisted by corruption. The extremity of the punishment describes how God sees sin. To you and I, perhaps, sin is merely the inevitable slip of creatures who cannot help themselves. But to God, sin is cosmic treason!

    Second: There is only one reason that anyone has ever gone to hell: Failure to trust in Christ (whether with forward-looking faith in Old Testament times, or with backward-looking faith after His work).

    ~Robin
     
  3. Yeshua1

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    we are born as sinners, and are already under the judgement of God, for in Adam. all of us have sinned!

    So regardless if we reject jesus or Not, already under comdemnation, rejection of Him 'seals the deal!"

    For IF it was ONLY rejecting yeshua, than best to not preach jesus to sinners, for they might reject him and get lost!
     
  4. zrs6v4

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    I agree although i was gonna avoid this side of the debate. I am mainly focused on how we deal with the reality of Gods eternal punishment when speaking to lost people. Think about it a single sin equals eternal consequences as all sin is directly against God.

    I agree that we are punished for our sins plural and not just our sin of rejecting the Gospel although in some sense we can say any sin is indirectly or directly rejecting jesus.
     
  5. zrs6v4

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    i think you and i are on the same page here. We as human beings, especially lost people, do not understand sin from the perspective of God and never will but our job is to move that direction. I think the more we understand that sinning is not a game and see its horror the better we can agree with God for His actions in judgment. In the glorified state we will see it and praise God for it. Its hard to imagine praising God for judging our family and friends.

    Comments?
     
  6. freeatlast

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    To focus on a sin or even sin itself is too shallow in my opinion. Sin is simply evidence that something more serious and deeper is at work. It is much like a headache or any other pain. neither is the real problem. They are pointing to something deeper that needs to be dealt with.

    In the case of man because of the fall we are all born with the same single problem. We do not want God to rule over us. In fact we do not want anyone to rule over us including our parents, but we have to be made to see that our rebellion causes us pain. The proof is the sin we willfully practice. We want to make our own choices and decide what is good and evil. (each doing what is right in their own eyes) Simply stated the lost do not want God to be God/Lord of their life.

    So what I do is explain to them that heaven is God's home and He is not going to get out to let them in and no one in heaven questions God. If they do not repent here and come to faith it does not matter how good they are He will not let them in because they have not surrendered to Him through Christ as Lord and Master and He is not going to be arguing with them for all eternity.
    This is why the NT never says “repent of your sin” but instead says repentance toward God. Until a person can see the real issue, and that is not wanting God to be their Master in all things, ready to get right with Him no matter what it takes, they cannot really see their sin.

    This is why so many in the church will say "Lord, Lord", but will hear “I never knew you.” Many tolerate Him but they never surrender fully to His position as Master/Lord. Outwardly they do what is expected at least to a point, but inwardly they withhold themselves.They repent of sin and clean up their lives but never surrendered to the Lordship of God/Christ or as scripture says come to repentance toward God. They don’t hate Him and may even like Him and even feel a loving emotion towards Him, but they withhold themselves from the total surrender of His rule over them and remain lost even in the mist of a great deal of religious practices and on the surface might be very nice people even exceptionally good people, but they are in fact lukewarm and will be spewed out because of no biblical repentance/faith.

    So, people go to hell for not willfully allowing God to take the place in their lives that He deserves, not individual sins. Their practice of sin is simply the evidence that surrender has not happened.
     
    #6 freeatlast, Aug 3, 2012
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  7. A Faithful Sidekick

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    Jesus dealt with sin first. Most of the people He dealt with already knew they were sinners, but when dealing with the scribes and pharisees the Lord wielded the sword of the Law to reveal their sin, as in the case of the rich young ruler.

    "I have kept the Law" was the rich young ruler's contention, but Jesus revealed his sin: Idolatry! The love of wealth was the grievous sin that he could not repent of.

    In their encounter, Jesus replied to a sincere question with a rebuke! "Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" the rich young ruler asked. "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone," Jesus retorted. Jesus began with God's goodness and then showed the questioner that in spite of his positive self-assessment, the Law reveals the sin of idolatry.

    It seems strange to me that a Rabbi should just rattle off a few commandments in random order like Jesus did in that encounter. The very first commandment is the one that really kept this questioner out of the Kingdom, yet Jesus skipped right over it. Why?

    To make the questioner see the truth in spite of himself. For that particular sinner, repentance meant selling all his possessions and giving to the poor - and following a new Master instead of serving mammon.

    "Go and sin no more, lest a worse thing happen to you (John 15:4)."

    "Neither will I condemn you. Go and sin no more (John 8:11)."

    "Do not let sin reign in your hearts (Roman 11:12)."

    "Awake to righteousness and sin no more (1st Corinthians 15:34)/"

    "Be angry and sin not (Eph 4:26)."

    "Repent and be converted (Acts 3:19)."

    "Repent of this wickedness (Acts 8:22)."


    You really cannot conclude that the New Testament "never says 'Repent of your sin.' " I understand that it teaches repentance "toward God" and "from dead works," but it also, very clearly tells us to repent of sin. The examples above demonstrate it.

    Choose your words carefully when you post here. People might get the wrong idea about you and jump to some crazy sweeping conclusions about you. :smilewinkgrin:
     
  8. freeatlast

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    To get saved the NT NEVER says repent of your sin. That is not how to get saved. You are proposing a works salvation. It is repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. If the person does that the result will be salvation which will cauase the turning from sin. :smilewinkgrin:
     
  9. Michael Wrenn

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    It's simple for me: I wouldn't tell them what you would. I would tell them that rejection of God results in consequences. I would also tell them that God's punishment is corrective, not retributive. The length of the separation and punishment is partly dependent on how long the person is unwilling to repent. Eternal hell is not taught in the scriptures; eternal hell is of pagan origin. Jesus taught a corrective punishment, lasting for an age -- a long but indefinite period of time, thus not eternal hell, but aionios hell, "aionios" meaning age. Thus, the true scriptural concept and teaching is not eternal hell, not annihilationism, not universalism, but an indefinite period of corrective punishment. The only way the separation and punishment could be eternal is if the person never repented.

    Therefore, the teaching that God punishes forever for a single sin or for sins committed during a limited human life span is a monstrous concept foreign to scripture and God's love, mercy, compassion, and justice. The idea that Christian have swallowed this pagan concept is quite amazing. This is a hindrance rather than a help in spreading the Gospel.

    Okay, I shall now brace for the inevitable attacks and charges. But I had to state the truth.
     
  10. Cypress

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    Michael, do you have a resource you could point us to that fleshes out your view beyond aionios. No attack from this brother, only seeking to understand where you are coming from.:love2:
     
  11. HankD

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    John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.​

    Because we love darkness rather than light.
    It's not primarily what we do but what we are.​

    Sinners. We have the equipment, the ability and the inclination to sin.​

    Birds fly, fish swim.

    Why do birds fly and fish swim?

    Because they have the equipment, the inherent ability and inclination to do so.


    HankD​
     
    #11 HankD, Aug 4, 2012
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  12. Michael Wrenn

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    I don't know what resource could be more important or authoritative than the literal Greek New Testament. One such resource is Rotherham's Emphasized Bible, the most literal copy ever produced.

    The Bible makes it clear that the purpose of "hell" or suffering is not to torture people, but to cause them to learn from their mistakes and grow closer to perfection. Divine judgment is reformative, not vindictive. The word used in the original Greek New Testament is kolasis, which means a beneficial chastening such as a gardener prunes a vine to remove dead vegetation and make it grow more fruitfully.

    Proportionality also ensures that any judgments upon a soul by God must be temporary and limited, since the sin that caused those judgments to ensue was also limited. This is a basic, Biblical teaching about divine justice -- and it is also common sense. The word used in the original New Testament to express this limited judgment is aionios, which means lasting for a distinct age or period of time. It is the Greek word from which we derive the English word eon. There is no such thing as "eternal" hell, despite what many Christians have been led to believe based on mistranslations of the Bible. In principle, it could be forever because humans have the freedom to continue to reject God. By this same principle, universalism is as false as is eternal hell.

    Nevertheless, when Jesus spoke of God's judgment upon the wicked, he did so with words that implied a limited, corrective punishment. Specifically, he referred to divine judgment as aionios kolasis, meaning age-long chastisement.

    Many Christians think they are defending the Gospel when they portray God as a vindictive eternal punisher when in reality they are impugning God's character.
     
  13. Cypress

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    Thanks Michael, I am now wondering how you handle the redemption of those lost persons that you see being correctively punished. The op kind of asks the same question. There is no scripture that I know of that is indicative of correction leading to perfection for the lost. Only new life through Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit can accomplish this. Is there a second chance contained in your theology or perhaps no need somehow?
     
  14. Michael Wrenn

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    I agree with this (bolded part).

    I think that passage in 1 Peter hints at a "second chance", although I wouldn't term it thus.

    I am content to believe that there are things beyond our knowledge but that the Creator of the universe will do right. I think God's justice is more just than ours would be, and His mercy is more merciful than ours would be.
     
    #14 Michael Wrenn, Aug 4, 2012
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  15. Cypress

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    Thanks Michael.
     
  16. Iconoclast

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    Purgatory is not the biblical teaching.That is a denial of the necessity of the cross. Michael...this clearly is an area that you cannot come to grips with,ie,
    God's holy judgements, in time and eternity.

    11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

    6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

    7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


    8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

    9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;



    No....it is you who are not correctly representing God here:thumbs::thumbs:
     
  17. Michael Wrenn

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    I do not believe in purgatory.

    "Eternal" and "everlasting" are misinterpretations and incorrect renderings.
     
  18. HeirofSalvation

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    An interesting and unforgettable point made by an unmentionable Christian author I once read...and it rings so very true. IMO

    The Godless and the damned do not, and will not, WANT to go to heaven. They have NO desire to be the "servants shall serve him". The damned would not be Happy in heaven....Often those who deny the Eternal state of the damned fail to understand this possibility...That is no home for them, they would HATE heaven, and the presence of God as much as they hate hell. They simply do NOT want to go...They do not love God, they do not want to see his face. They do not want to bow down to him. They are reprobates. They hate God in like manner as Lucifer does. They have become ALTOGETHER un-profitable and they are beyond repentance. They would be miserable in Heaven and in the presence of God, they DON'T want to be there....You think you are merciful to give them an eternal escape from hell......They would be as miserable and pathetic in heaven and in the presence of God as they are in Hell....forcing the Scriptures to hand them Heaven is as cruel to such wretches as consigning them to hell is...They are at minimum in their "comfort zone" when they are in the like company of the hatefully damned.
     
    #18 HeirofSalvation, Aug 4, 2012
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  19. HeirofSalvation

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    #19 HeirofSalvation, Aug 4, 2012
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  20. Michael Wrenn

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    I believe to say anyone is beyond repentance is inconsistent with scripture.
     

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