Why do people go to Hell?

OK, Barry just called and I talked to him about this (he'll be home Tuesday!). He also referred to Romans 14:23, but with an interesting thought. Here is Paul's overarching principle:
"everything that does not come from faith is sin."

And so Barry was sort of thinking out loud and mentioned that if someone had faith that God did not exist and acted accordingly, then his lack of belief in God could not be counted to him as sin, although the actions arising from it could.

It was a logical thing. I'm still chewing on it. He is, too, but he was late for an appointment so we will talk more later. But I thought I would mention it here anyway.

 

OK!! Thank you! That's the kind of thing I was looking for. Thank you very much. I'll read up on that more there after I put Chris in bed.

THAT's what I was talking about! Thank you!

 

Except that Paul always uses "faith" to mean "faith in God."

 

1. Sin is defined as active and passive disobedience to the law. The law of Christ is what we judge sin by now. So I agree with you there.

2. Acts 17:31 would be one place off the top of my head.

3. Do you have Revelation 21:8 in your Bible? What about Romans 14:21? Where is my concordance?

4. He isn't right. He is wrong. You said he was a Bible teacher?

5. You have this wrong. Perhaps it is your wording. ALL sin has not been atoned for. Christ is the atonement for all sin though. You must not understand the difference.

6. Revelation 21:8 and Romans 14:21, not to mention several texts from Hebrews.

Tell your son to keep studying. The only people who are to teach are those who actually know the word.

 

OK, looking up the verses --

Numbers 20:12
The word used in your quote as 'believed' is also translated 'trusted.' So I looked it up. It is 'aman,' a primary root meaning to build up or trust, and by implication to believe. But it is not a belief IN God, but rather a trusting of His instructions. So that reference is negotiable, I think...

Numbers 14 is solid. The only possible argument against it in terms of others is that the Israelites had experienced the incredible miracles and had no excuse for their disbelief. I do not think that argument holds up, however, because, as we see in Romans 1, every person has some kind of evidence presented to him and so none have an excuse.

On the other hand (no, I'm really NOT Jewish!), is there a subtle difference we might be missing here? We can see that refusing to believe by thrusting away the evidence of the truth, as the Israelites did and as Romans 1 mentions is a sin. However is it a sin to not believe before you have been presented with the evidence???

Greater minds than mine....

On to Deuteronomy 9:23 -- Again the word the KJV translates at 'believe' is actually 'trust.' "You did not trust him or obey him" is, perhaps, the more correct translation.

It's Numbers 14 which is solid, at least to the extent of refusing to believe despite evidence, which I do personally associate with the Romans 1 chapter. That is biblically a sin.

Now, to go back to the original purpose of this thread -- I still stand by Jesus' words that it is belief in Him which saves and unbelief which condemns. Unbelief in the face of evidence has strong biblical basis for being called a sin. Nevertheless, Jesus did pay for ALL sins on the Cross. Paid for or not, however, the unbeliever walks away from all that....straight into hell.

It's sort of like evicting oneself from an apartment and wandering the streets even though someone else has paid the rent, eh?

Thank you again. It's been a fascinating afternoon!

 

You said he was a Bible teacher?

What Scott and I toss around in the privacy of our own home in terms of Bible study is not necessarily what he teaches! He is quite knowledgable regarding the Bible and a very good teacher. But still, there are times when we all sit around with Bibles and Concordances and commentaries and all kinds of things and work one particular subject or another from as many sides as we can think of. Of course he is not going to teach all the things we talk about! I don't know about you, but we have thrown around some pretty interesting ideas and then looked to see if we could disprove them biblically. We learn an awful lot that way.

At any rate, don't take what I mention us discussing as what he is going to be teaching! Thanks.

 

Well, that is a relief.

 

But this is not what Scripture says. Scripture says that man does go to hell for his sin.</font>[/QUOTE]Perhaps it is worth while to take a look at the actual fate of the unsaved and go backwards from there, to see how they came to that fate. This is graphically stated in a passage that has already been mentioned. The last part of that verse says:
"...was cast into the lake of fire."
Rev. 20:15b
Now, that we know of, no one is in this lake of fire as of now. So the, "Was," speaks of the certainty of this yet-to-occur event.
What was it, exactly, that caused them to meet with such a fate? The first part of our passage explains:
"And anyone not found written in the book of life..."
Rev. 20:15a
To not be found in the book of life, therefore,
is what causes the lost to be cast into this lake of fire.
So, the question should REALLY be not, "Why do people go to hell?, But "Why are people not in the book of life?"
The debate here is centered around sin; is that it? Is sin the thing that keeps people from being found in the book of life?
The wages of sin is death; no doubt. The soul that sinneth, it shall die; Yes. Sin separates; without question. But is that THE thing that keeps a person from being in the book of life?
Let's look at Saul of Tarsus, he went around killing Christians. Now, did the sin of "Saul of Tarsus" cause him to not be in the book of life? That is not possible, because Saul, and the Apostle Paul, are one and the same person. Rest assured, The Apostle Paul is in the book of life.
To be justified is to be, "Just-as-if-I'd" never sinned. Paul, all of us never sinned if we are in Christ Jesus. The cause of not being in the book of life is because one is not in Christ Jesus. Why are people not in Christ Jesus? Well, IMHO, I refer back to my first post.

 

I completely disagree with that. Sin is defined by lack of conformity to the character of God. THere were people in teh world (and sin) for many thousands of years prior to the giving of the OT Law. There are NT commands that are not in the OT Law. Furthermore, I would point out that Paul says we are no longer under the OT Law, yet that does not mean there is no more sin. There is also a "law written on the hearts" (which I take to be the result of image of God in man), so that those without the law do by instinct the things written in the Law. In this, the overarching principle of sin is outside or and prior to the Law. So I can't agree that sin is defined only by the OT Law.

I will take a closer look at your comments perhaps later when I get a chance.

 

I can relate to this as well, Pastor Larry as to the true definition of sin. When our Lord was here on this Earth, He was fully God and fully the Perfection of Humanity. Only He can claim this absolute Perfect obedience and conformity to the Fathers will and purpose from the moment He was concieved until forever and ever He knew no sin; as evidence we can point to the fact that everything He did, every utterance that proceeded out of His Holy Mouth was ALWAYS IN ABSOLUTE, 100% conformity to the Law He wrote, and also to the Fathers will--never even for a microsecond did our Saviour ever slip up from this state, He could not, He is God!

This is the only definition of sin that is biblical; if we are not ALWAYS IN ABSOLUTE, 100% conformity to the Law He wrote, and also to the Fathers will, we are sinning! All we are doing is giving sin and Satan excuse if we try to come up with any other definition!

 

It's according to what hell you're talking about.
There is Hades (the grave) which we all go to. And there is Gehenna (the lake of fire where people are destroyed and burnt up completely as punishment, not a continual punishing). So I guess you're talking about Gehenna. Sins unrepented of destroy us, as well as being totally unaccepting of Christ after being given the chance.

 

That is a load of hot fresh bull stuff! I know men and women who are lost as a goose in a blindin hail storm and live a more holy life than some church members I know. According to your post it is simply a matter of right living.

Going to Hell is caused by one thing, being born into this world. It is where all men and women will go if they do not choose the gift that God has presented them. To go to hell one must simply live a life and die and death and be a person who does not choose Christ inbetween.

 

Nah, read my post in the subject matter for "Is Hell Eternal". The Bible is pretty specific.

 

I'm pretty sure he's teaching the second option.

Andy

 

Okay, then that's general atonement as historically explained,

 

Yes it is Phillip, and I come to a totally different conclusion than you do. Read my post in the same thread.

 

A person ends up in Hell because that person is given the opportunity to accept God's gift of salvation, and chooses to ultimately reject it.

 

Johnv, if it weren't for the Bible, I would agree with you.

Opportunity has nothing to do with it.

Revelation 20 and 21 explicitly condemn a man because of his actions. Sorry.