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Why do people hate the doctrine of Eternal Security?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Nicholas25, Nov 24, 2008.

  1. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Nicholas, I'll say the same thing here I said on your thread on this topic in Other Christian Denominations because I'm not sure if you've read it. Please read all the responses because people are taking time and care to address your concerns.

    You can't look at examples and determine your theology from that! IOW, don't look at your mother and try to decide if eternal security is correct or not. You can really get messed up this way. Look at the Bible and what it says! That is what we need to look at for final authority - not examples or what we think should be or shouldn't be.

    Also, see my post above on 1 Cor. 11 showing that believers committing a gross sin were taken to heaven.
     
  2. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Salvation is a gift from God and the Bible says;
    Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    We didn't save ourselves. Only Jesus saves

    Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
    This means if you are really saved you can't change your mind because you no longer own yourself. Once saved you belong to God.

    MB
     
  3. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    Neither can we keep ourselves saved?
     
  4. Zenas

    Zenas Active Member

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    Nevertheles, we are told directly, "So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling."
     
  5. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

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    The wording in the kjv is "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling..It could just as easily read,,cultivate what you understand is your personal salvation with fear and trepidation....don't take your redemption lightly. Be serious about it.

    It does not mean to work for salvation. That is a stretch to make that verse, in context, mean salvation by works.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  6. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Hi TC;
    You're right we can't but God is who keeps us saved.
    MB
     
  7. Zenas

    Zenas Active Member

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    And yet not one single English translation of the Bible says anything close to that. They all say "work out . . . ." Surely among the best minds of theological thought, from so many different points of view, there would have been at least one who translated this verse as you have proposed. You will not find such a rendition, except of course in the paraphrases where the editor writes down what he thinks the verse ought say, e.g., The Message. I would never suggest this verse means we attain our salvation by works but it is abundantly clear that we maintain our salvation by good works. Every time I read the gospel of Matthew I become more impressed at how very works oriented the gospel of Christ is. Look at the Great Commission. It if literally full of active verbs: preach, teach, obey, baptize. I don't want to denigrate the importance of faith but that word isn't found anywhere in the Great Commission.
     
    #67 Zenas, Nov 26, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 26, 2008
  8. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

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    Try the Greek word for work. Katergazomai....to finish, fashion, cause, perform, work out....nothing to do with a labour to obtain.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  9. Zenas

    Zenas Active Member

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    Jim, when you bring out the Greek you have me at the same disadvantage I had you when we were discussing tax law. I did look up the word in a Greek dictionary and it seems to agree with your definition. However, if you will read my posts on the subject I have never suggested we do anything to obtain our salvation. That is only available through the finished work of Jesus Christ. It is by grace, not by works. However it is incumbent on us to cultivate, to preserve, to maintain our salvation by good works lest we lose it. "I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified." 1 Cor. 9:27.
     
  10. AresMan

    AresMan Active Member
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    In other words, it really does mean "work out" as in "go to the gym and work out." It means to take what you have within you and exercise it.
     
  11. AresMan

    AresMan Active Member
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    If you can lose it, how do you know when you have it?
     
  12. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    And, how do you know when you lose it?

    How many sins does it take? What kind of sins does it take? Can you get it back?

    If it involves one simply saying, "I no longer believe," what happens if the next day one says, "Oops, I take that back. I believe again."?
     
  13. Zenas

    Zenas Active Member

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    First of all, in spiritual matters we can never know anything. We have to go on faith. See Hebrews 11:1. How do I know (believe) I am saved? I claim the promises of John 3:16, Mark 16:16 and similar passages. Why do I believe my salvation (and yours for that matter) is not secure? Because God’s word teaches it. 1 Corinthians 9:27, James 5:19-20, Galations 5:4, and many other places. How do we get back into a state of grace? By claiming the promises of 1 John 1:9. This makes a lot more sense than some system of believing that when you are saved all your sins—past, present and future—are forgiven, a concept that is not found in the Bible.
     
  14. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Not according to John.


    1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
     
  15. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Faith is not blind, as some religions practice it--Hindus, Muslims and some cults.

    Faith is based on absolute knowledge. What do you mean "we can never know anything." You are in sad shape if that is true.

    I know that Christ died.
    I know that He was buried.
    I know that He arose from the dead on the third day.

    I know these things according to the Scriptures, verified by over 500 witnesses, verified by outside historical sources, etc.
    I know that salvation is through Christ who came for the express purpose of dying for my sins and demonstrated his deity while on this earth.

    My faith is not blind. It is grounded in the facts that are accurately recorded for me in the Scriptures.
    Yes I can know for sure that I am saved. Yes I can know many spiritual truths for sure.

    What meanest thou: "in spiritual matters we can never know anything." :rolleyes:
     
  16. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Quite a heresy you are espousing there.
     
  17. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

    Notice that this verse does not say that Paul will be a castaway. It says he should be a castaway as we all should because no man is with out sin

    Jas 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
    Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.


    Inorder to be converted one must not have ever been saved. Once converted always converted. This verse speaks of sinners and those born of God do not sin. The sin that dwells in their flesh may sin but the Spirit of that man does not sin. The flesh is not going to be saved in it's present state. We will have new bodies when we meet Christ face to face. This flesh will die.

    Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

    The fact is we are not justified by the Law. We are justified by Grace through faith, and both are gifts from God. In fact the Law never saved anyone for if it had then the death of our Lord would have been unnecessary
    MB
     
  18. Nicholas25

    Nicholas25 New Member

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    As I continue to study conditional and unconditional security, I have came upon imputed righteousness and imparted righteousness. I like the idea of imputed righteousness concerning unconditional eternal security. Obviously it is used to back up unconditional eternal security. Imparted righteousness seems like it helps us to be saved, but afte that we (with the help of the Holy Spirit) must make sure to remain in the faith.
     
  19. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    If I might leave this here for you brother, it will help in understanding the biblical meanings of 'imparted' and 'imputed' righteousness in a sermon by Michael Morrow.
     
  20. Pipedude

    Pipedude Active Member

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    One point to keep in mind is that all of this discussion begins with the assumption that the Calvinist view of election is not correct. If it were, then all verses about conditional security would be subsumed under the caveat "But God will see to it that you do fulfil those conditions." Which gives an "unconditional" container for the conditions--sort of like a box with one address on it which is packed inside a bigger box with the correct address on it.

    So, if we begin with some kind of noncalvinist "free will" belief regarding saving faith, we're asking whether God allows us to decide to enter, but doesn't allow us to decide to exit. This is why Calvinists insist that noncalvinist doctrine is works-oriented and gives credit to man and makes man partly responsible for his own salvation: "God did his part and I did my part." But if the former emphasis is correct (man makes the final decision regarding God's offer), then the idea that man does something to stay saved is consistent. In each case, man "does something" to experience salvation by grace through faith.

    On the other hand, there's a big difference between "doing something" and "doing something that is meritorious." The latter flies in the face of of Pauline theology.

    Just to throw another cat in the clothes dryer, does anybody have an opinion of Jude 21 "keep yourselves in the love of God"? We all like v. 24 "him who is able to keep you from falling," but even a medicine that is able to keep you from relapsing is no good unless you're taking it, so v. 24 doesn't say much in one direction or another about unconditional security. How do you explain v. 21?
     
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