Why do the saints obey God's Commandments in Rev 12:17?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by BobRyan, Dec 25, 2004.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Some have said that the saints obey God Commandments (Rev 12:17) because it is just a funny notion that they have - and in the spirit of Romans 14 - it must be a personal preference but not really that important.

    Others have said that the saints are obeying important commandments of God and since these are not the same as God's 10 comments, then we should all obey those commandments.

    Others say that the saints can't possibly be obeying God's commandments - because nobody can do that and we should not be reading Rev 12:17 thinking that people could actually obey God's commandments.

    Assuming you accept that obedience is the opposite of rebellion - what say you about the saints keeping God's Commandments?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  2. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2001
    Messages:
    4,005
    Likes Received:
    0
    Christ died on the cross for me because I cant keep the commandnents. If I could I would be perfect and there would be no need of a Savior. That is not to say that we shouldnt try to live a holy life. But when we fail:

    My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: Ijohn 2:1

    I believe that the Holy Spirit came and went on a believer in the Old testament as in the case of Saul. There is no fixed doctrine in the Old Testament on the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. He only remained in man as long as he obeyed the law. David realizes this when he prayed in Psalm 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. The Spirit of the Lord departed from Samsom but then returned. Not all of the Bible is doctrinally applicable to the way of salvation in this dispensation.
    Those of us who are saved in this dispensation of Grace in the Church age are:
    1. Spiritually circumcised (Col 2)
    2. Born again (John 3)
    3. Indwelt by the Holy Spirit (John 14)
    4. Sealed by the Holy Spirit (Eph4)
    5. Put into Jesus Christ (I Cor 12)
    6. Baptized by the Holy Spirit (Eph 4)
    7. Baptized into the Body of Christ by the Holy
    Spirit. (I Cor 12)
    You cant find these things mentioned, or said, in connection with anyone in the Old testament.

    So the only explanation for the verse that you mentioned, which is a famous one used by SDAs and others who think that a Christian can lose his salvation, is we enter another dispensation where there is going to be an element of works connected to salvation in the tribulation period.
    If a man in the tribulation does not "endure to the end" and have "faith plus works" he can lose his salvation because his salvation is not based on a permanent indwelling of Christ, but upon the continued act of his personal obedience to the commandnents of God.
     
  3. tamborine lady

    tamborine lady
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2003
    Messages:
    1,486
    Likes Received:
    0
    [​IMG]

    Mark 12-29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
    30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
    31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.


    These are the commandments of Jesus, and if you follow them you will find yourself obeying all the 10 Commandments of the old Testament.

    In the following scripture ,Paul tells us how we do that.

    Romans 8-3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
    4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


    The Holy Ghost is the key to obeying anything!

    Peace,

    Tammy
     
  4. Hamtramck_Mike

    Hamtramck_Mike
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2004
    Messages:
    159
    Likes Received:
    0
    OK, then, as Christians, when we mess up and make mistakes that cause us loss either personal or otherwise, we know that we can ask the Lord for forgivness for our misstep, but can we also ask Him to restore what was lost as a result of our actions or words when you are sure that only a decree or decision from Him would make the situation right again?
     
  5. prophecynut

    prophecynut
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2004
    Messages:
    1,263
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ps104 gets an A- rating on this one. I've added in bold print.

     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ok - so you say that we all have sinned, all have fallen short of God's Glory and so all need a Savior - all need forgiveness.

    But then you appear to say that our attitude as Christians should be that "ye sin not" and that we as saved Christians "should" try to live a holy life.

    Is that what you see the saints doing in Rev 12:17?

    Are you saying they are saved Christians that are trying to live a holy life and that this results in the saints "keeping the commandments of God" Rev 12:17?

    So basically the plan of salvation - the "Gospel" - the means whereby a person is saved and stays saved -- was not the same in the OT as the NT in your view?

    There was on in the OT - and another one (possibly a "better one"?) in the NT?

    Are the saints in Rev 12:17 going back to the previous Gospel - in your view - or are they living under the real NT Gospel?

    Sounds like a pretty Good gospel that you have in the NT.

    (Imagine for a moment -- meeting someone in heaven from OT times that is not "Born again, saved by Jesus the Messiah, or a member of the body of Christ" as a work of the Holy Spirit!)

    In my Bible Heb 4:1 says "We have had THE Gospel preached to US JUST as they ALSO had".

    In my Bible Gal 3:7-8 says "For this reason Abraham had THE GOSPEL preached TO HIM".

    And of course it also says in that SAME book in chapter 1 (Gal 1:6-9) "there is in fact only ONE Gospel"

    In Isaiah 59 we find this "forever" promise regarding the Holy Spirit given, published and read by the OT saints.

    In John 3 - "pre-cross" Christ argues the point with Nicodemus that HE (as a Bible teacher in Israel) MUST know about the New Birth and the work of the Holy Spirit.

    Does the text of Rev 12:17 says something about the saints losing their salvation?

    (Wouldn't Rev 12 be a famous chapter even if SDA's did NOT read it? How often do you hear a sermon on the subject of Rev 12:17?)

    So you are saying that all those "endurance" texts in the NT are only intended for a time of "yet another Gospel" -- a time when getting saved and staying saved does not work as it does today?


    Is a future time when another Gospel is in place that reflects Romans 2:11-13 as the new Gospel "For not the hearers of the Law are just before God but the DOERS of the Law will be justified"??

    In 1John 2 - John says that the one who SAYS He knows Christ but then fails to walk as Christ walked is a liar. Is that a text for that future time when obedience and endurance become important?

    In Christ,

    Bob
    Or
     
  7. tamborine lady

    tamborine lady
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2003
    Messages:
    1,486
    Likes Received:
    0
    [​IMG]

    Perhaps this is the commandment they are obeying in Rev. 12-17

    Matthew-28-19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
    20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


    "whatsoever I have commanded you "

    Peace,

    Tammy
     
  8. Ben W

    Ben W
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2002
    Messages:
    8,868
    Likes Received:
    0
    Christians keep Gods commandments because we wish to, it is a natural reaction to Him comming into your life! [​IMG]
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Are those the 10 commandments or "all of the Word of God" or 10 commandments plus the Levitical command about Loving your Neighbor (Lev 19:18) and the Law of Moses in Deut 6:5 about Loving God with all your heart?

    IF that is the "natural" result of the "New Birth" then is that something for "all who are born again" and not simply an oddity about the saints in Rev 12?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Would all here agree that the Saints of Heb 11 that "lived by Faith" were applying the same Gospel principle of "faith" that we see today such that

    6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.


    Is this then the same thing that you see the NT saints of Rev 12:17 doing or are they merely legalists for keeping the commandments of God?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2001
    Messages:
    4,005
    Likes Received:
    0
    Right

    Right

    No

    No

    If what you are asking is if Old testament believers were saved the same as those of us in the Church age, of coures not.

    For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. (Heb 7:19)

    Back under the law.

    I'll just quote Matthew Henry here on Heb 4:1-2;

    Here, I. The apostle declares that our privileges by Christ under the gospel are not only as great, but greater than those enjoyed under the Mosaic law. He specifies this, that we have a promise left us of entering into his rest; that is, of entering into a covenant-relation to Christ, and a state of communion with God through Christ, and of growing up therein, till we are made perfect in glory. We have discoveries of this rest, and proposals, and the best directions how we may attain unto it. This promise of spiritual rest is a promise left us by the Lord Jesus Christ in his last will and testament, as a precious legacy. Our business is to see to it that we be the legatees, that we lay our claim to that rest and freedom from the dominion of sin, Satan, and the flesh, by which the souls of men are kept in servitude and deprived of the true rest of the soul, and may be also set free from the yoke of the law and all the toilsome ceremonies and services of it, and may enjoy peace with God in his ordinances and providences, and in our own consciences, and so have the prospect and earnest of perfect and everlasting rest in heaven.
    II. He demonstrates the truth of his assertion, that we have as great advantages as they. For says he (v. 2), To us was the gospel preached as well as unto them; the same gospel for substance was preached under both Testaments, though not so clearly; not in so comfortable a manner under the Old as under the New. The best privileges the ancient Jews had were their gospel privileges; the sacrifices and ceremonies of the Old Testament were the gospel of that dispensation; and, whatever was excellent in it, was the respect it had to Christ. Now, if this was their highest privilege, we are not inferior to them; for we have the gospel as well as they, and in greater purity and perspicuity than they had.


    What do you mean "my Bible". I use the King James. Which one do you use? Also I had ham for dinner yesterday. Am I going to hell for that?
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    I am simply pointing out that Paul argues first for only ONE Gospel (in Gal 1) and says some very negative things about those who propose "multiple Gospels" - multiple methods of salvation.

    He then argues that this ONE Gospel was preached "before hand to Abraham". (Christ Himself argues "Abraham SAW MY DAY and was glad" in John 8).

    Paul also argues that "THE Gospel was preached TO US JUST as it was TO THEM ALSO" in Heb 4:1.

    You on the other hand have been arguing for a Gospel that is different before the cross (and hence for the saints of Heb 11), and even "different" for the saints of Rev 12.

    But as I showed from Heb 11 - Paul argues that TODAY this concept of faith in God and the kind of faith that the OT saints had is the SAME that we must have today for it is STILL true that without that faith "it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God" etc.

    Paul holds up the giants of faith - the saints of the OT in Heb11 as OUR examples as OUR great cloud of witnesses.

    Christ demanded that Nicodemus recognize that a Bible teacher in Israel PRE-CROSS had to know and teach the truths about the Holy Spirit that are listed by Christ PRE-cross in John chapter 3.

    Your list of things that "did not work" in the OT Gospel - is "instructive" of just how "different" you claim that Gospel was from the "REAL" Gospel.

    And hence your problem with Gal 1.

    But more to the point of this thread - your answers above about the saints of Rev 12:17 NOT being concerned with obedience or holy living when scripture says of them "THEY KEEP the commandments of God" is truly a conflicted assertion.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    There is a thread here for that topic.

    I personnally don't talk about pig sandwiches - I only talk about rat,cat,dog and bat sandwiches.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. Ben W

    Ben W
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2002
    Messages:
    8,868
    Likes Received:
    0
    Are those the 10 commandments or "all of the Word of God" or 10 commandments plus the Levitical command about Loving your Neighbor (Lev 19:18) and the Law of Moses in Deut 6:5 about Loving God with all your heart?

    IF that is the "natural" result of the "New Birth" then is that something for "all who are born again" and not simply an oddity about the saints in Rev 12?

    In Christ,

    Bob
    </font>[/QUOTE]Absolutley Bob, obeying God Commandments are for all who are born again. We the Christians of today are the Saints and we do keep faith in Jesus and keep the Commandments of God.

    God Commands it, that is enough reason to do it. [​IMG]
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    I can always expect to get a good word from Ben that is Bible based and insightful.

    Thanks Ben.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. Ben W

    Ben W
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2002
    Messages:
    8,868
    Likes Received:
    0
    As we say in Australia - No worries mate [​IMG]
     
  17. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2001
    Messages:
    4,005
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ok Bob. You win the arguement. I concede that you must keep the 10 commandments in order to get to heaven. Good luck. You are a much better Christian than I am.
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    In John 14 Christ says "If you love Me KEEP My commandments".

    Some people appear to take the position "Well, I can either listen to Christ - OR I can be saved by Grace through faith alone. I choose to be saved instead of listening to this part of What Christ said".

    They do the same with Christ's Words in Matt 7 "Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord - will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who DOES.."

    They argue that Christ is being wayyy too legalistic and choose to be saved rather then listen to "these words" of Christ as well.

    Then there is Paul in Romans 2:11-13 and James in chapter 2 and Paul in 1 Cor 6 again and ... it just keeps going on and on.

    If you want to make a conflict between the Bible's call for "obedience" AND the Bible statements on the Gospel - then you are not going to want to read parts of the Bible.

    Rev 12:17 is probably one of those parts.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    How do they keep the 4th commandment?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. Ben W

    Ben W
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2002
    Messages:
    8,868
    Likes Received:
    0
    For me I let my employer know that I would not be available to work on that day and they were fine with that. I would hope that we all do things like Bible Reading and spending time with God in prayer 24/7 and that the Sabbath is not some type of special time for those things.

    As I see it, in Creation God rested. So we ought to do our best to rest in the best way possible.
     

Share This Page

Loading...