Why do we need salvation?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Mike Gascoigne, Mar 21, 2005.

  1. Mike Gascoigne

    Mike Gascoigne
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/mike.jpg>

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2003
    Messages:
    267
    Likes Received:
    1
    It's becoming increasingly difficult to find Christians who believe that the first eleven chapters of the Bible are true. Many Christians, if not most of them, dismiss this entire section of the Bible as mythology.

    The alternative is that God made the world in its present imperfect state, or it came into existence through purely natural processes and God never had much to do with it. There has never been a time in the process of evolution when the world has been perfect, or could even be described as "good" (as in Genesis 1). It has always been full of death and destruction, suffering and disease.

    Obviously God can do what he likes with his own creation. He can make a good world or a bad one, but if he made it bad, why should we consider ourselves to be sinners in need of salvation? We are just good people, trying to make the best of the bad hand that God has dealt us. When we praise God (for whatever reason) we should also be praising ourselves for all our efforts, however valiant or feeble, as we try to find ways to make this world a better place.

    Mike
     
  2. Woodymdt

    Woodymdt
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2004
    Messages:
    233
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello Mike,

    I'm a little puzzled as to your question?

    What is it that you're wanting to express, or ask?
     
  3. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    We need Salvation because the first 11 chapters are true. God is creator of all that exists apart from Hiimself including the first humans Adam and Eve. They rebelled against God so that sin and death entered the world.

    The Apostle Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
     
  4. mcgyver

    mcgyver
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2004
    Messages:
    340
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree with OldRegular,
    We either take Gods word as all truth with no mixture of falsehood; or we've got to chuck the whole thing out of the window and start over.
     
  5. Scott J

    Scott J
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2001
    Messages:
    8,462
    Likes Received:
    0
    Mike, I am not sure about your experience but in the group of Christians I run with you would be hard pressed to find one that didn't believe the first 11 chapters as a literal narrative.
     
  6. Mike Gascoigne

    Mike Gascoigne
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/mike.jpg>

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2003
    Messages:
    267
    Likes Received:
    1
    I'm saying that if God created a defective world, there's no point being a Christian because it doesn't make sense.

    Mike
     
  7. CYBERDOVE

    CYBERDOVE
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2005
    Messages:
    139
    Likes Received:
    0
    I do not know why people who claim to be christians, and who do not believe in christian doctrine or the Bible continue in the faith, these people who do not believe that the Bible is the infallible WORD of GOD need to call themselves by another name. These people want to pick 1-from column A-and-1 from column B-however--none from column C--because it is not pleasing to them, etc, etc. They do not want the whole WORD because it maks them aware of their sins. ---------in CHRIST and a 100% believer ---- [​IMG]
     
  8. Mike Gascoigne

    Mike Gascoigne
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/mike.jpg>

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2003
    Messages:
    267
    Likes Received:
    1
    Obviously you've found the right group of Christians, but it isn't like that everywhere. Have a look at the following thread on this board.

    Only 40% of Baptists believe Christ lived a sinless life.

    Mike
     
  9. CYBERDOVE

    CYBERDOVE
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2005
    Messages:
    139
    Likes Received:
    0
    GOD did not create a defective world, HE created a perfect world, it was due to the fall that corruption entered HIS creation. GOD made man in HIS own image----free will--freedom of thought---HE does not want robots and as long as we rebel against HIS WORD this world will get worse and worse. GOD is not a cosmic bully, who would force you to do HIS bidding, if we would only follow HIS HOLY BOOK this planet would be healed. As for the poll that stated only 40% of baptist questioned believed that CHRIST lived a sinless life, it would be hard to find such a small percentage around here. Was anyone on the BB given a questionaire?. I was not given one!
     
  10. Mike Gascoigne

    Mike Gascoigne
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/mike.jpg>

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2003
    Messages:
    267
    Likes Received:
    1
    Can anyone tell me, when was the last time you heard a sermon about the pre-fall conditions, and how it will all be restored in the end-time? I can't remember ever hearing one, over a period of at least three decades in a number of different churches. Sometimes it gets discussed in house groups where people know each other, but I can't remember hearing it preached in church.

    Mike
     
  11. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    Preach through Isaiah and you will see Eden restored.
    [​IMG]
     
  12. Mike Gascoigne

    Mike Gascoigne
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/mike.jpg>

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2003
    Messages:
    267
    Likes Received:
    1
    </font>[/QUOTE]Bob,

    I've heard that passage quoted often enough. It's from Isaiah 11, and if you continue as far as Chapter 51 you get to a more specific reference to Eden:


    "For the Lord shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the Lord"


    Together with the end of Revelation where it talks about the New Heaven and the New Earth, and the Tree of Life in the New Jerusalem, it's all good sermon material. However, what I find lacking is the specific affirmation that the pre-fall paradise actually existed.

    I once listened to a popular preacher who denied the first three chapters of Genesis, and almost everything else up to chapter eleven, and then in another sermon he preached about the end-times and affirmed his belief in the (restoration!) of paradise, and God would create the New Heaven and New Earth in an instant (no need for six whole days).

    I find that people are willing to preach about the future, but they are not so good at linking it to the past. I can't remember ever hearing it done properly.

    Mike
     
  13. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    5,500
    Likes Received:
    20
    Mike G. wrote,

    Very few, if any, Old Testament scholars today believe that all of Genesis 1 – 11 is to be understood literally, but it is also true that very few, if any, of them dismiss this “entire section of the Bible as mythology.” Certainly no one on this message board, nor anyone that I know anywhere, dismisses Genesis 1 – 11 as mythology. Indeed, Genesis 1 – 11 is a very important and informative portion of the Bible when it literary genre is understood and respected as it is by most Old Testament scholars today.

    It is extremely unfortunate, however, that in many of our Baptist churches today we find such a huge disparity between the understanding of Genesis 1 – 11 on the part of Old Testament scholars and the understanding of Genesis 1 -11 on the part of the lay people and even many of the pastors. Unlike the mainstream Christian denominations that have high educational standards for their clergy, we have thousands of independent Baptist churches whose minimum education requirement for full ordination is that they can preach a sermon from the King James translation of the Bible. And therefore, unlike the mainstream Christian denominations, we still have millions of Baptists who have not yet learned anything at all about the literary genre of even some of the most important portions of the Bible, including Genesis 1 – 11, with the result that they have not a clue to their correct interpretation.

    It has been proven, over and over again, beyond any reasonable doubt whatsoever, that Genesis 6 – 8 is not a literal description of actual events in history, and since the rest of Genesis 1 – 11 is of precisely the same type of literature, there is absolutely no reason to suppose that any of it is a literal description of actual events in history, Some very naïve individuals point to Romans and First and Second Peter and try to force a literal interpretation on Genesis 6 – 8 arguing that Paul and Peter, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, understood Genesis 6 – 8 to be a literal description of actual events in history, but this is totally ridiculous. The reality is that Paul and Peter used an understanding of Genesis 6 – 8 that was common in their day to illustrate their epistles, and whether or not that understanding was correct is immaterial. And of course, anyone who is familiar with the literature on Genesis 6 – 8 knows that the understanding of these people was incorrect.

    Does any of this have anything at all to do with the doctrine of salvation as it is taught in the Bible? No, of course not. We all use illustrations from nature and other sources to express our thoughts to others, and Jesus did this repeatedly throughout all four Gospels. The fact is that we have all sinned and come short of the glory of God, and we all needed the redemption that comes only through personal faith in the blood atonement of Christ on the cross for our sins. The literary genre of Genesis 1 – 11 could not be more irrelevant to that fact. However, failure to recognize and understand the literary genre of Genesis 1 – 11, even in the 21st century, is making some very vocal fundamentalist extremists appear to be devoid of both reason and common sense, and is thereby casting a dark shadow upon the Gospel causing it to appear to many to be a message of darkness rather than light.

    Indeed, many of these fundamentalist extremists go so far as to tell our young people that they must choose between the theory of evolution and the Gospel of Christ. And very many of these young people, having been instructed in the evidence for evolution, choose evolution rather than the Gospel of Christ. What an abysmal disaster! A disaster which can be so easily avoided by simply letting scientists do their job and the Christians do their job. One’s belief or disbelief in the theory of evolution may at times have an impact upon the manner in which the gospel of Christ is presented, but it need not have and should not have an adverse affect on the gospel message itself.

    [​IMG]
     
  14. Gregory Perry Sr.

    Gregory Perry Sr.
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2004
    Messages:
    1,993
    Likes Received:
    0
    :eek: :rolleyes: 2 Timothy 3:16..."ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God...."

    To reject ANY portion of scripture as being NOT true(in this case Genesis 1-11)on the basis of ANYTHING said by ANY human "scholar"is to accept a LIE from HELL itself.

    also...

    Evolution is a damnable LIE spawned by SATAN to bolster unbelief(unbelief IS the ultimate unpardonable sin)and rob mankind of any sense of accountability or responsibility to bow before a righteous Holy God...our Creator!

    Any "christian" that rejects the literal truth of our origins and the fact of the early history of mankind as found in Genesis 1-11 (as given under the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit)is at best "apostate" and inviting the deep consternation of our Saviour at His judgement seat...and at worst..well..this is the BB and there are rules so I won't get into that.The TRUTH of scripture has absolutely NOTHING to do with "literary styles" and any so-called scholarship that would tell you otherwise should be rejected out-of-hand.Our young people are running amuck and living ammoral lifestyles because they have been taught lies based in evolution that has permeated their brains.Many of them reject the idea of God and the concept of "sin" because they don't think they were created...rather they evolved...so they can live how they please with no moral absolutes...much less the Bible.Any "christian" who even for a second buys into any of that is just plain deluded!!!

    "Much learning doth make thee MAD..!"

    Greg Sr. [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  15. blackbird

    blackbird
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2002
    Messages:
    11,898
    Likes Received:
    2
    People who deny the literal inspiration of the first eleven chapters of Genesis---including pastors, theologians, scolars, historians, & scientists are

    going in the way of Cain and after the gainsaying of Korah!!! To be a Bible denyer is to be a God denyer!!

    Bro. David
     
  16. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,165
    Likes Received:
    322
    The reason why we need salvation and the proof text that the Theory of Evolution is not true:

    Romans 5
    12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    Unless, of course, one redefines the words sin and death.

    HankD
     
  17. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,306
    Likes Received:
    0
    Did sin and death come into the world after Adam's sin or satan?
     
  18. Mike Gascoigne

    Mike Gascoigne
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/mike.jpg>

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2003
    Messages:
    267
    Likes Received:
    1
    Adam's sin. The earth is not the natural domain of Satan.

    Mike
     
  19. MargoWriter

    MargoWriter
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2005
    Messages:
    1,384
    Likes Received:
    0
    "for by one man, sin entered into the world, and death by sin"
     
  20. mcgyver

    mcgyver
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2004
    Messages:
    340
    Likes Received:
    0
    I came to Christ later in life (mid 30s) and was called into ministry later than that. My education was secular in nature, and in fact my first declared major was Anthropology. I later changed to Criminal Justice, but that's another story...........

    From my Studies in the field of Anthropology, even though I was not a Christian at the time; I came to the conclusion that Evolution is a myth, on par with other creation myths around the world. Data is skewed, intentionally falsified on occasion, and does not stand up using the scientific method. I remember when we rejected Amino-Acid dating because we couldn't get dates earlier than about 10,000 years.

    In my opinion, Evolution crumbled many years ago, as none of the physical sciences support it, and IMHO its adherants are suffering from a "blind faith" syndrome..........

    After I became a Christian, I started reading everything I could get my hands on regarding evolution and it lead me to one conclusion.......

    Genesis 1-11 has to be literally true, as there is nothing else that makes sense, nor is there any other explaination for the data streaming in from the latest scientific research......

    So Yeah, I believe Genesis is literally true. Genesis is the foundation of the very Gospel itself, as God revealed it to us over time.
    No foundation and the house falls down
     

Share This Page

Loading...