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Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by billwald, Sep 17, 2012.
is more important than what we do? God is a grammarian?
what one thinks/believes determines if ones works are any good in the etrnal sense!
I thought all works weren't any good in the eternal sense according to your belief.
After being saved by Grace of God, the good works done while here that were of proper motives/desires will be used to 'reward" the ones doing them, in order to gain those "crowns"....
So one can be save dand heaven without eternal rewards, another can be in heavewn with many of them...
So we who have the fewest brownie points will have to clean the bathrooms?
or make us closer to the image of Christ? Ah... So you do believe that good works "after being saved by the Grace of God" is meritorious? So according to you sanctification is important? Now this being the case let me explain the catholic perspective a little. Still keeping in mind what you believe about obtaining crowns "after being saved by Grace" through good works. What you call "being saved by Grace" Catholics actually define that consept at the entry point to the greater world of salvation. So yes we are saved by faith in Christ given to us By the Grace of God and not by any work of our own so that no one can boast. However we see several tenses of the word salvation in scripture. Its not all just past tense but also present tense we are being saved and it is also in the future tense we will be saved. What are we saved for (past tense). Well Paul says
are we living out our salvation if we are walking into those works which God has prepared? No. Look then at 1 Peter 1
Salvation in the future tense also
So we see the scriptural use of the word salvation has more than just one tense for christian - or just the Past tense. It is thus Catholics believe we have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved.
Ask yourself this question in this passage in first Peter
why should one fear if heaven is an unevitable outcome? Because salvation includes what Peter says here
It is clear that you have been born again so that you can perfect yourself by Meritorious actions after you initial point of salvation. Here it is clear the Good news is that you are saved to be obedient to God receiving in the end your fulness of salvation
Let me put it in another way. I don't know if you've read Pilgrims Progress. A christian classic by John Bunyan, but I will use it to make my point.
it is at this point which you say one is saved. I say this is true but also everything after is also salvation.
Therefore let us understand terms. When Catholics speak of Merit torwards salvation and participation of salvation we are not talking about any point before what you call "saved by the grace of God" what we think of as an entry point to salvation (initial Justification). If we were to die at that point we would go to heaven if we do not die at that point as long as we remian in him we will obtian heaven. When we speak of merit we mean it like you do when you speak of winning crowns of Glory only a "saved" christian (past tense) can merit salvation's rewards (present continuing sense) which we will experience fully when our salvation is fully revealed at the return of Christ (future tense). So often we speak over each other when you speak of salvation you are only speaking of the entry point as if its the whole thing. But that is just the begining. Not the end. In the Catholic mind. Therefore we do not believe works can save us (bring us to the place of justification) but only Jesus' completed work on the Cross can do that. After that point we can please God by the works that we do.
Your posts have ceased to carry any credibility. Your purpose in being here is to mock and demean the Baptist faith. Works ae a result of salvation and a sign with a real relationship with Jesus Christ. Works do not save. Personally, I think it is time for you to move on, which is exactly what you would have already done if I were moderator.
I have a simple question for you. Honestly now. How have I mocked the Baptist faith? I've disagreed with baptist and I make my points. Members who are Church of Christ also disagree and make their points contradicting baptist position. Isn't this a debate forum? I make my points others disagree. We both present our position we both support our views using scripture. I have never said baptist arent' christians. I have never said baptist wont be saved. In fact I assert the opposit and have consistantly done so. I believe baptist to be Christian. I believe there are saved baptist who will be in heaven. All I've done is put forward my position on specific matters (nuance) of our faith.
In all the Major aspects of faith I agree with baptist.
We believe in the Trinity
We believe in the Virgin Birth
We believe in Christ redemptive act at Calvary
We believe in Christ actual death on the Cross
We believe in Christs actual resurrection
We believe scriptures are the inspired word of God and Authoritative
We Believe that all those who believe on Jesus will be raised up on the last day
We believe in the return of Jesus Christ
We believe in a final Judgement
We believe in life everlasting for those who believe
Where we differ is on the details of many of these points. I personally didn't come to a personal relationship with Jesus Christ with out Baptist influence on my life. It was through baptist preaching that I asked Jesus to come into my heart. And the majority of my adult life I spent at baptist churches. I have the upmost respect for baptist and have made friends on this site. I disagree with Biblicist many times and at times been frustrated. But I listen to him and all others who put forward their ideas. I would freely eat with him if I met him as well as DHK. So again how have I mocked the baptist faith? Am I not allowed to disagree?
As far as credibility. I don't claim to have any more credibility than anyone else on this site. Certainly I wouldn't consider me a credible proponent of Baptist theological views. However, I hope that I'm considered credible proponent for Catholic views and of course my own.
If you are dense enough not to pinpoint to time when your statements lost credibility, I will remind you. It is when you said, all Baptists and evangelicals, stop believing false doctrine and return to the one holy catholic church. You are the same as Mormoons and Jehovah Witnesses.
Was it actually spelled "Mormoons?" Cuz that's kinda hilarious no matter what. That in itself would have made it impossible for me to feel insulted by any words surrounding it.
Logically, Reformed believers don't know why people are saved
because election is not based on God's foreknowledge. If God doesn't know in advance whom the Holy Spirit will regenerate . . . .
When did I ever say that? Ever? Show me that post! I would very much like to see it. I think you have the issue of either a mistaken identity or would have like me to have said that.
I think I know what happened here. It must be a case of mistaken identity. I know I didn't say that. So I looked at your arguments or post and this is what I found. You were arguing with Wittenburger on this post So, I think you got me confused with him because we have similar views on certain issues. I never said what you attributed to me.
Yes, you are correct and my sincerest apology. The two names are not even similar so I have no excuse. I have no problem debating any issue, but that comment sent me through the wall, and I reacted too quickly. Again, my apologies.
Thankfully you are not a moderator. If everyone who disagrees with you is purged from the BB you will have nobody left to mock and demean. You won't have much fun anymore.
Seriously, you have asked why people are allowed to post on the BB who are not of 'like faith and order?' We all know who that eliminates. All Protestants who hold to the validity of sacraments are gone, all Catholics (only a couple allowed here anyway), all Orthodox, all Anglicans.
The reason you believe TS's posts 'have ceased to carry any credibility' is because he left the Baptist church for the Catholic faith which for you is inconceivable and a real burr in your bonnet. You are an anti-Catholic bigot of the highest magnitude and the amount of anti-Catholic lies you continue to post prove it.
..and Lutherans as well...and members of the CoC, at least in regards to baptism. (And unfortunately not all Anglicans 'hold to the validity of the sacraments'---there are some low-church Anglicans who, despite what the BCP and Articles teach, are basically Zwinglian in their view of baptism and communion.)
And I would change your word "unfortunately" to "fortunately". I am glad that there is at least one denomination that can contain a wide diversity of beliefs.
From what I understand, the Anglican Communion IS the only example of this.
It's the only one I know of. And there is the same wide diversity of belief on just about every doctrine. Some people see that as a bad thing, but I don't.
It is a badge of honor. Think about it. You and TS are the one that signed up for a Baptist board, comparing us to JWs and Mormons (TS that is), telling us to return to the catholic church and stop believing false doctrine.
Like I said before, I will discuss any issue, but when statements like the above are made, it is time for you two to leave. Catholic doctrine gets the exact treatment it deserves.