Why do you believe the bible?

Thank you for your fine response here, Kathy, concerning what I know suspected would happen - a reference to some heresy in an effor to "prove" that there was a "line of Christianity" can be traced back to the apostles.

In addition to your post, here is what my 1967 Catholic Encyclopedia has to say about the Waldensians:

Quote.............

THE WALDENSES HERESY

[From the 1967 edition of the Catholic Encyclopedia]

Today, in a modified form, the twelfth-century heresy of the
Waldenses still survives in part of Italy. The original heresy
had two basic doctrines: an extreme interpretation of apostolic
poverty and the right of laymen to preach without ecclesiastical
licence. These doctrines were developed at Lyons, France, by a
wealthy French merchant named Peter Waldo, who in 1176 began a
life of voluntary poverty in the interpretation of Christs' words
to the rich young man, "If thou wilt be perfect, go, sell what
thou hast, and give to the poor,...and come follow me" (Matthew
19:21).

EARLY CONDEMNATION. Others inspired by his example, gathered
about Waldo and styled themselves the Poor Men of Lyons. When
in their enthusiasm for poverty they began to preach, they fell
under ecclesiastical suspicion because of their ignorance of
theology. At the Third Lateran Council in 1179, after examina-
tion proved their ignorance, Pope Alexander III forbade them to
preach. The Waldenses refused to obey and were excommunicated
by Bishop Jean Bellesmains of Lyons.

As early as 1159, a similar group of laymen, calling themselves
Humiliati formed pious confraternities around Milan in Lombardy.
They also failed to secure approval to preach from the Third
Lateran Council; from then on, the Waldenses and the Humiliati,
professing almost identical doctrines, formed a loose union.
In 1184, at a council at Verona, Pope Lucius III excommunicated
both groups for their defiance of ecclesiastical authority.
During the thirteenth century the Italian branch won adherents
in Italy, Germany, Barvaria, Austria, and Bohemia, while the
French group established communities in Lorraine Flanders,
southern France, and northeastern Spain. The Waldenses were
severely persecuted almost everywhere, but particularly in
Aragon, where in 1197 King Pedro II became the first medieval
monarch to decree burning at the stake for heretics.

DOCTRINE. Because the Waldenses claimed to derive from Scrip-
ture both their two basic tenets and the rest of their theology,
the Bible became their sole rule of faith. Their rejection of
oaths, military service, and criminal tribunals and their identi-
fication of Christian perfection with poverty caused them to be
confused against their will with the heretical Albigensians.
Pope Innocent III's profession of faith, drawn up in 1210 for
converts from Waldensianism, indicates that some of them were
affected by heretical interpretation of the nature of Satan,
the resurrection of the human body, and the transmigration of
souls, [See ALBIGENSIANISM in ALBIGEN.TXT that accompanies]

Since the Catholic clergy, growing wealthy on stipends and
goods received in the exercise of their ministry, lived lives
considered to be directly opposed to apostolic poverty, the
Waldenses denied that priestly ordination gave them the power
to administer the sacraments or offer Mass. Scripture, they
claimed, taught that anyone living a virtuous life of poverty
could effectively perform these rites without being commissioned
by a pope or bishop.

ORGANIZATION. The Waldenses, whose members were recruited
chiefly from among the poor and ignorant peasants and artisans,
comprised two classes: the Poor-Men or Masters (Mistresses), who
embraced voluntary poverty in somewhat monastic communities, and
the Friends, believers who supported the Masters by alms but who
continued to frequent Catholic churches, where--except for Holy
Communion--they received the sacraments.

Converts desiring to become Masters underwent a novitiate from
one to six years, practicing the poor life and memorizing biblical
passages in the vernacular, preparatory to preaching careers.
After their novitiate they joined the Masters in a ceremony similar
to Catholic religious profession, in which they pronounced vows of
poverty, chastity, and obedience and promised to wear the "apos-
tolic habit," a simple woolen garment, and sandals distinctively
laced in the form of a cross. If a candidate had been married
prior to this profession, his vow of chastity was considered to
have dissolved the marriage bond.

Claiming authorization from the Bible, Waldo in 1210 assumed
episcopal powers and instituted a priesthood within his communi-
ties. Age alone distinguished its grades, deacons and priests
being the younger professed, and bishops being the elder. All,
especially the priests assisted by deacons, preached in desig-
nated regions, but the bishops governed and alone consecrated
their Eucharist once a year on Holy Thursday [day before Good
Friday] night. At first, women were allowed to preach, but their
activities gradually were curtailed and they worked chiefly in
hospices.

LATER HISTORY. After Waldo's death about 1218, the Italian
and French Waldenses drew apart. During the later Middle Ages,
persecution eliminated most of them, driving the principal rem-
nants into several Alpine valleys in Piedmont. Because of the
similarities of their teachings with those of John Wycliffe and
John Huss, the Bohemian Waldenses were absorbed in the fifteenth
and sixteenth centuries by the Hussites, Moravian Brethren, and
Anabaptists. [See ANABAPTISTS in ANABAPT.TXT that accompanies]

At the time of the Protestant Reformation, the Waldenses of the]
Alpine valleys, influenced by the French Lutheran, Guillaume Farel
(1489-1565), abandoned most of their characteristic teachings in
favor of Lutheran and Zwiglian doctrines and established a dis-
tinctly organized church. For the next two and a half centuries
this church periodically suffered persecution by the French Kings,
until the French Revolution granted toleration. In 1848 their
sovereign, King Charles Albert of Sardinia, established their
religious and political equality with Catholics. Since then,
they have engaged in vigorous missionary activities and own a
school of theology at Florence. The world membership of the Wal-
densian Church is about 30,000.

[Richard H. TRAME, S.J.]

Unquote...

Keep up the good work, Kathy! You are a fine defender of the holy Faith!

I'm taking a little break from these boards; sometimes you have to do this to regain your bearings, your sense of humor and your focus on Christ, his teachings and of course, going to daily at the Church he established.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Et ego dico tibi quia tu es Petrus et super hanc petram
aedificabo ecclesiam meam et portae inferi non praevalebunt
adversum eam et tibi dabo claves regni caelorum et quodcumque
ligaveris super terram erit ligatum in caelis et quodcumque
solveris super terram erit solutum in caelis.
(Matt 16:18-19 From the Latin Vulgate)

 

It is a beautiful peculiarity of this little people that it should it occupy so prominent a place in the history of Europe. There had long been witnesses for the truth in the A1ps. Italy, as far as Rome, all Southern France, and even the far-off Netherlands contained many Christians who counted not their lives dear unto themselves. Especially was this true in the region of the Alps. These valleys and mountains were strongly fortified by nature on account of their difficult passes and bulwarks of rocks and mountains; and they impress one as if the all-wise Creator had, from the beginning, designed that place as a cabinet, wherein to put some inestimable jewel, or in which to preserve many thousands of souls, who should not bow the knee to Baal (Moreland, History of the Evangelical Churches of the Valley of Piedmont, 5. London, 1658).

Here a new movement, or rather an old one under different conditions, received an impetus. Peter Waldo, or Valdesius, or Waldensis, as he was variously called, was a rich and distinguished citizen of Lyons, France, in the closing decades of the twelfth century. Waldo was at first led to study the Bible and he made a translation of it which he circulated among the people. The reading of the Gospels led to an imitation of Christ. Waldo took the manner of his life from the Scriptures, and he soon had a multitude of disciples. They gave their property to the poor and began to preach in the city. When they refused to cease preaching they were expelled from Lyons. Taking their wives and children with them, they set out on a preaching mission. The ground was well prepared by the Albigenses and the Cathari, as well as by the insufficiency and immorality of the Roman Catholic clergy. They traveled two by two, clad in woolen garments, with wooden shoes or barefoot They penetrated Switzerland and Northern Italy. Everywhere they met with a hearty response. The principal seat of the Waldenses became the slopes of the Cottian Alps and East Piedmont, West Provence and Dauphiny. Their numbers multiplied into thousands. It is certain that in the beginning of his career Waldo was a Roman Catholic, and that his followers separated from their former superstitions.

Rainerio Saechoni was for seventeen years one of the most active preachers of the Cathari or Waldenses of Lombardy; at length he joined the Dominican order and became an adversary of the Waldenses. The pope made him Inquisitor of Lombardy. The following opinion in regard to the antiquity of the Waldenses was rendered through one of the Austrian inquisitors in the Diocese of Passau, about the year 1260 (Preger, Beitrage zur Geschichte der Waldesier, 6-8). He says:

Among all the sects, there is no one more pernicious to the church than that of the Leonists (Waldenses), and for three reasons: In the first place, because it is the most ancient: for some say that it dates back to the time of Sylvester (A. D. 825); others to the time of the apostles. In the second place. because it is the most widespread. There is hardly a country where it does not exist. In the third place, because if other sects strike with horror those who listen to them, the Leonists, on the contrary, posses a great outward appearance of piety. As a matter of fact they lead irreproachable lives before men and as regards their faith and the articles of their creed, they are orthodox. Their one fault is, that they blaspheme against the Church and the clergy,—points to which laymen In general are known to be too easily led away (Gretscher, Contra Valdenses, IV.).

A History of The Baptists

Note: Almost all that we know of the Waldenses come from their enemies. What do the Catholics say about the Waldenses? Here they give a very good report of them in the light of their own heretical doctrines.
DHK

 

Why do i believe the bible? No man could have written whats written.From In the beginning to the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen, the WORD is perfect.If you dump the glass of water handed you and drink water from your own well and believe all the WORD beginning to end it becomes very obvious and very beutiful, and the WORD became flesh.