Why does 70 sevens become 69 sevens and 2000+ years?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by zucchini, Mar 5, 2004.

  1. zucchini

    zucchini
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    If I am mischaracterizing things here, please tell me what I have mistaken, but...

    I seem to keep hearing dispensational premillenialists reference the prophesy of Daniel speaking of seventy sevens, where these are years...
    but then turn the last 7 years to last (or not begin for) over 2000+ years since Christ.

    What cause can we possibly have to radically reinterpret the time spans for just that last 7 years?

    Please treat me as a skeptic, providing evidence or other scripture reference with your explanations.

    Thanks for your well-reasoned explanations.
     
  2. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    Daniel 9:24-27

    24) "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

    25) "So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.

    26) "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

    27) "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

    Verse 24 -

    1. 70 weeks have been appointed to Daniel's people. That could mean believers or Jews if read by itself.

    2. The holy city is also mentioned. This can ONLY be Jerusalem. Therefore, the most natural understanding of Daniel's people would be Jews.

    Verse 25 -

    1. In this verse, Daniel DIVIDES the 70 weeks into three time frames. 7 sevens and 62 sevens. He mentions the last seven later. So Daniel is responsible so far for DIVIDING the sevens.

    2. Jerusalem would be rebuilt and the Messiah would come after 69 sevens. Again, this is Daniel's addition skills here.

    3. The 'times' of all this will be in distress. In other words, it won't be a time of peace for the Jews.

    Verse 26 -

    1. After the arrival of Messiah, he will be killed, but not because of his own sin.

    2. The people of the prince (antichrist or Christ when read by itself) to come will come and ravage the city and temple. This did not happen until AD 70. Christ was killed about AD 30.

    When you read Daniel's prophecy, you see one event and then another. It doesn't say there is an unknown time span, but it doesn't rule it out either. Daniel is SIMPLY STATED THE EVENTS KNOWN TO HIM.

    So according to history, there is a GAP of about 40 years in Daniels prophecy that HE DID NOT MENTION.

    Verse 27 -

    1. 'he' will make a covenant. The 'he' would go back to the last person mentioned. This would of course be the prince to come (again, the identity is not yet confirmed).

    2. The final seven of the 70 sevens now begins. It takes place AFTER the death of the Messiah, after Jerusalem is destroyed, and begins with a covenant that is made. It will be made with the 'many'. This could be understood to mean a representative group.

    3. Sacrificing will be taking place when the 'prince to come' puts an end to it in the middle of the covenant.

    4. This 'prince to come' is responsible for a particular desolation. God will then make the 'prince to come' pay severely for his wickedness.

    Note: the desolation is NOT that he ended sacrificing. All sacrifices made for salvation after the cross of Christ are a stench to the nose of God.

    The covenant has yet to be established. This desolation has yet to happen. God has not poured out all of his wrath upon the world yet.

    Therefore, there is an unspecific time GAP between the 69th seven and the 70th seven. It is just like the GAP between the death of the Messiah and the destruction of Jerusalem.

    No where does it say that it would be 70 CONSECUTIVE sevens. History has already PROVEN that.
     
  3. Bro Tony

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    Amen Brother Daniel,

    Now with that final seven years that Daniel the prophet spoke of, where in the Scripture do we find them? The Book of Revelation. Isn't it interesting that those seven years spoken of in Rev have to do with the people of Daniel, (Israel). During the time of these seven years the church is not mentioned. God has appointed a time for Israel, He will complete what He stated.

    Some say this "gap" theory goes too far. But there really is no difference in a gap of 40 years and one of ? years. It is a matter of the fullness of God's time.

    I am reading Mauro's book "The 70 weeks and the Great Tribulation". I am interested in his view, which I understand is on of a partial preterist.
     
  4. Tim

    Tim
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    DD,

    There is no 2000 year or even 40 year gap in that specific prophecy--otherwise it was inaccurate!

    As I've said before, the only things required to take place in the seventy weeks are listed in Daniel 9:24. Other realted matters are discussed in verses 25-27, but that does not mean they must take place within the very specific 70 week period.

    If we can arbitrarily insert a gap into Daniel's 70 weeks, surely we can also insert gaps into the creation week, can't we?

    Tim

    P.S. Bro. Tony, keep reading Mauro--the guy was right on the money on this stuff.
     
  5. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    If you can find a neat scripture
    to support the gap.

    Here is my "gap maker" scripture:]

    Luke 21:24 (KJV1769):
    And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
     
  6. Watchman

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    If you can find a neat scripture
    to support the gap.

    Here is my "gap maker" scripture:]

    Luke 21:24 (KJV1769):
    And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Amen Brother Ed!
    Dan. 9:24 "Seventy weeks have been decreed for YOUR people and Your holy city..."
    This seventy weeks has do do with Israel, it has nothing to do with the Church. Was Daniel in the Church?
    Okay, suppose there is no gap. Daniel mentions seventy weeks, but only accounts for sixty nine.
    Where's the other week?
     
  7. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    Tim, why do you ignore what Daniel said?

    Daniel said that 70 weeks would take place. Then he breaks down the 70 weeks into three specific time periods:

    7 weeks
    62 weeks
    1 week

    Daniel even tells us major events that would happen at the conclusion of each.

    There is a 40 year 'gap'. I have already laid it out. It is you who does't have eyes to see it.

    This isn't an issue about the New Covenant either, because I believe the New Covenant has been cut, initiated, and in full force, just not finalized.
     
  8. Tim

    Tim
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    Ed and Watchman,

    Apparently you've decided that somehow Luke 21:24 invalidates the plain sense of Daniel 9:24. But what if the "times of the Gentiles" does not equal "the church age"? The text (without accompanying Scofield notes) does not demand such a meaning. Your echatology (based on a percieved gap in Daniel 9:24) has assumed it. So your point is an example of circular reasoning.

    Daniel accounts for all seventy weeks. I don't get where you're coming from on that one.

    DD,

    I know we dealt with this supposed 40 year gap a month or so ago. The text does not demand it. Just because Daniel goes on to mention things that ultimately followed from the events predicted in verse 24, does not mean they all had to take place within the seventy weeks. There is a parenthetical statement in verse 26, and an additional statement at the end of verse 27. They are provided to give further information on the subject--but they do not need to be a part of the 70 weeks, but rather follow after it as a logical consequence. The events contained within the seventy week period are listed in verse 24--they were all fulilled within the continuous 70 weeks. So, IYHO, which items from the verse 24 list have not yet taken place?

    Tim
     
  9. zucchini

    zucchini
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    I don't want to stir anything ugly off the bottom of this pot, I just wanted to hear the different perspectives side by side.

    I personally believe that we must accept scripture at face value, and avoid adding meaning to the text in order to bolster its prophetic value - this is what Mormons and Muslims to to authenticate their texts, and it does not hold water...
    ...of course to hold those views as a _theory_ is naturally valid.
     
  10. R. Charles Blair

    R. Charles Blair
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    Brethren: Dr. Scofield, in a lecture titled
    "Addresses on Prophecy," wrote: "God never reckons time with the Jews when they are out of their land. Then there is always an interlude. With Israel out of the land, God's Jewish clock stops. It begins again when Israel is back where Israel ought to be." (p. 101)

    The Old Scofield Reference Bible is not quite that explicit, simply inserting "this entire church age" between the 69th and 70th weeks, and the New Scofield BIble omits this statement entirely. But he, along with Ironside, Hal Lindsey, Charles Feinberg, and others, held that "the clock of God stopped at the end of the 69th week and the Jewish age has been interrupted." (Feinberg, of Dallas Theol. Seminary, in "Israel at the Center of History and Revelation," p. 128).

    This principle is presented by those who hold it simply as an axiom, needing no proof; no passage of Scripture is cited as actually teaching this; it is seen as a "self-evident truth." Let's take a quick look to see if the principle will hold.

    The Babylonian captivity was a prophetic event, even to the number of years (70) - Dan. 9:2, Jer. 25:11-12.) Where was Israel during this time? Not "in the land" so that God's Jewish clock would run, but OUT OF THE LAND, in Babylon! Yet the clock was still ticking!

    The "70 weeks" (490 years) of Daniel 9 leads us up to "Messiah the Prince," cut off AFTER the 69th week. Thus the "parenthetical church age" must begin at Calvary? But Israel was still IN the land for nearly 40 years AFTER Calvary! The destruction of Jerusalem was in 70 A. D., just one generation after the cross, but more than 30 years beyond one prophetic week of seven years. And the most dispensational writers acknowledge that at least one event, that destruction, was prohesied, even though it was in the "unseen church age." With Israel in the land, why was the clock not ticking? Then they fulfilled the prophetic warnings given in Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28, and were driven from the land.

    Then Israel returned to its land, in 1948, and has been in the land ever since (to be sure, in unbelief). That is now 56 years, far beyond the one prophetic week of 7 years. Why is the prophetic time clock not ticking? If your answer is "unbelief," think of the massive unbelief in Israel before the Babylonian captivity, or the "400 silent years" from Malachi to Matthew, or the unbelief during our Lord's public ministry. There are some Messianic Jews in Israel today; how does this differ from the days of Elijah, or Manasseh?


    It is a poor theory that fails three major tests. One may be dispensational; one may hold a "gap" from the ascension to the return; but evidently the "great prophetic principle" on which this theory is based, a "theory that would stop a clock," does not work.

    Think and pray before you insist on more than Scripture actually, clearly states. Hold it if you will, but do not insist that other accept it or be considered heretics.

    Best to all, and to all a "good night" -

    Charles Blair - Rom 8:28
     
  11. Tim

    Tim
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    Charles,

    An excellent post. The "prophetic clock" idea always struck me (no pun intended) as a very strange idea. God's clock is the universe itself (Gen 1:14).

    But I must admit, I have been tempted from time to time, to explain my late arrival by saying I was going by my "prophetic clock". After all, it does allow for a gap in timing--for as long as you need it--in order for things to work out as planned.

    In Christ,

    Tim
     
  12. R. Charles Blair

    R. Charles Blair
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    Brother Tim - Thanks for a new excuse! I thought I had used them all! - Best - Charles - Ro. 8:28
     

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