Why does Dispensationalism teach...

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Dave Taylor, Apr 23, 2004.

  1. Dave Taylor

    Dave Taylor
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    Why does Dispensationalism teach that there are many groups (Church Saints, Trib Saints, Mill Saints, OT Saints, Gentile Saints, Jewish Saints, etc....) with different destinies and dichotomies...

    while Paul, on the other hand, taught us quite the opposite:

    All men of faith united in One Body with no divisions or subsets or caste-systems based on race, location, date, etc...

    Romans 10:12
    "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him."

    Galatians 3:26
    "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

    Ephesians 3:21, 4:4
    "Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end; There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

    1 Corinthians 12:12
    "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. "

    2 Corinthians 5:16
    "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ"

    Colossians 3:10
    "And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."

    Hebrews 2:10, 10:10, 13
    "For it became Him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both He that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

    Ephesians 2:13
    "But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."

    These scriptures sure seem awful clear to me to say that whatever divisions Dispensationalism wants to inforce and create; that we should avoid and dismiss....and look to the unity and faith of all who believe regardless of their background, so that all the focus is placed on Christ; and all men who belong to Him by faith.

    Didn't John tell us that there is one Lamb's Book of Life; and there are only two ways that names are dealt with in regards to it? Either you belong to Christ by faith in Him; or you are blotted out; and belong to Satan.

    Are there other sections within the Lamb's Book of life that deal differently with all of the subsets and groups and divisions that Dispensationalism teaches?
     
  2. DeafPosttrib

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    Dave, Preach it!!! [​IMG]

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  3. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    Dave, I will take my blowtorch to this strawman.

    The distinctions we dispies make, have to do with TIME, not position.

    We state that the church is made up of all believers from pentecost through the rapture. We further believe that the church is the bride of Christ, and is not made up of all saints of all time. Therefore, the church has a special position with Christ, based on the time we lived.

    All other saints are redeemed the same, were saved the same, will enjoy the kingdom the same, etc.

    All those verses you referenced refer to the church, which is neither jew nor gentile.

    Whew, that blowtorch is hot.
     
  4. Optamill

    Optamill
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    Dave,

    Emphasizing the distinctions you listed (especially the basic distinction between Israel and Church) is what makes dispensationalism what it is. The Israel/Church dichotomy allows for the pre-trib rapture, which is the crown jewel of dispensationalism. Take away this distinction and the pre-trib view has no reason for being.
     
  5. gb93433

    gb93433
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    Dispensationalism is on its second revision just in my lifetime.

    One of my best friends is a Ph.D. student at DTS and he tells me that most of the professors do not believe much of what the old dispensationalists believe. So it is changing. What once was is no longer. It is past. In talking with some of them they don't like it when I quote from some of the older books.

    Many today adhere to progressive dispensationalism.

    One thing I have noticed among my dispensationalist friends is that they have begun to leave the old dispensationalism of Scofied, Larkin and Chafer.
    They don't see the Sermon on the Mount as future only but as for then as well.
     
  6. Daniel David

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    gb93433, I also reject the oldschool dispies. Even now, I am taking a course by Dr. Lightner. Man, talk about stiff. I can't believe he is a prof at DTS.

    If I want to be moved during his lectures, I have to eat alot of lettuce.
     
  7. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    DD,

    Calvary does not limited for the New Testament saints only, Calvary reconciled all saints of both Old Testament and New Testament together through the faith in Jesus Christ.

    Also, we are the part of Abraham's covenant through faith in Jesus Christ - Galatians 3:8,14.

    That means, all saints in the Old Testament was saved by the faith through Jesus Christ same as we faith in Him.

    Gal. 3:16 tells us, there are many seeds, but many are in Christ's. All saints of the Old Testament were saved by the faith in Jesus Christ same as we faith in Christ, are ONE SEED.


    Gal. 3:26 tells us, we are all children of God by faith in Jesus Christ. Os, therefore, Adam, Abel, Noah, Abraham, David, etc. of O.T. saints are all children of God as we -N.T. saints are children of God by faith in Christ.

    Gal. 3:28,29 tell us, either Jew or Gentile, anyone who have faith in Christ, both are ONE in Christ. Not divided in Christ's body.


    Romans chapter 11 telling us, God does not cast Jews away. Only believing Jews are remain in the same tree, unbelieving Jews removed from the tree. God added believing Gentiles join with believing Jews on the same, so, all Israel be saved - Romans 11:25,26

    Gal. 3:26 "But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us ALL."

    Obivously, it proves us, both O.T. saints and N.T. saints are God's children through the faith in Christ.

    Gal. 6:15-16 "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as MANY as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God."

    It telling us, either person who is circumised or not circumised, but person is a new creature in Jesus Christ, we are the Isreal of God.

    I am not replacement theology.

    Isreal is Church. Church is Israel.

    New Testament does not saying God have two different programs for Israel and Church in the future. God already reconciled both Jews and Gentiles together unity into ONE BODY by Calvary 2,000 years ago. No longer divided between Jews and Gentiles. - Eph. 2:12-16

    Church will go through tribulation persecute under the Antichrist till Christ come and gathering us (elect) together - Matt. 24:29-31.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  8. DeafPosttrib

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    You mean DTS is Dallas Theology Seminary?
     
  9. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    Yes.
     
  10. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    1. And that would be why I clearly said:

    "All other saints are redeemed the same, were saved the same..."

    Please read the post before you just cut and paste your response.

    2. I have never denied that.

    Again, let me requote what I said:

    "All other saints are redeemed the same, were saved the same..."

    3. You must have also missed where I said:

    "All those verses you referenced refer to the church, which is neither jew nor gentile."

    4. Let me requote what I said:

    "All other saints are redeemed the same, were saved the same..."

    5. Actually, this is debatable based on the meaning of "and". However, that is for another thread.

    6. I know you want to believe this, and it would surely simplify theology, however, it just isn't so. Sorry.

    7. The church is neither jew nor gentile, and will never be jew or gentile. It will forever be its own entity.

    8. The church will not go through the tribulation. There is NO scripture that says otherwise. In fact, we are told that we will be spared from that hour in which God will try the WHOLE WORLD.
     
  11. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    dpt, it is obvious that you don't understand dispensationalism. All you are doing is taking potshots at the pathetic LaHaye/Larkin/VanImpe models. They are not taken seriously by serious pretribbers though.

    Try taking on an actual pretrib scholar.
     
  12. DeafPosttrib

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    DD,

    John 16:33 tells us, that we must suffer tribulations because Christ already overcome them.

    Acts 14:22 tells us, that we MUST go through MUCH tribulations to enter the kingdom.

    1 Thess. 3:3-4 tell us, that we are appointed for tribulation, because Christ suffered on the cross for us, so, therefore, we ought follow Christ's example - Luke 9:23; and 1 Peter 2:21.

    You saying, church will not go through tribulaiton.

    How about 'saints' of Rev. 13:7,10, & 4:12.

    Aren't we the saints - 1 Cor. 14:33?

    Pretrib inteprets Rev. 3:10 - "hout of temptation' means 7 year of Tribulation period.

    Is that what Christ actually saying it? No. He does not say.

    Rev. 3:10 tells us, Christ promises us, IF we keep the commandments, He will protect us while facing the temptations.

    1 Corinthians 10:13 - "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able: but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

    It tells us, God does not allow us to face any great temptations, He knows our weakeness areas. But, we are carry with temptations and able to escape from fall into sin.

    Joseph is the good example of 1 Cor. 10:13. In Genesis 39:7-13 tell us, Joseph faced temptations from master's wife. She asked him, for sex. He refused. She kept on asking him again and again day to day. He kept on stubborn refuse to sex with her. One day, she asked him again the same question, he refuses, then she grabbed his garment, and he fled. Joseph does the right thing, to avoid fall into sin. Joseph faced temptations, but he does carry with it, and able to escape from it.

    Rev. 3:10 is not talking about the wrath of God, neither, it talk about the gathering together, neither, it talk about Christ's coming. It talks about temptations.

    Notice, Rev. 3:10 is same with Rev. 2:10 also James 1:12.

    I am make a chart for comparing of Rev. 3:10-11 with James 1:12:

    "tried"
    'he is tried' - James 1:12
    'to try them' - Rev. 3:10

    "crown
    'he shall receive the crown of life' - James 1:12
    'no man take thy crown' - Rev. 3:11

    James 1:12 promises us, IF we endure with temptations, not give up, shall receive the reward crown of life.

    Sane as Rev. 3:10-11 promise us, IF we keep His commandments and endure with the temptations, we shll receive the crown.

    Also, there is another chart on the comparing of James 1:12 with Rev. 2:10:

    "try"
    'he is try' - James 1:12
    'ye may be tried' - Rev. 2:10

    "crown"
    'crown of life' - James 1:12
    'crown of life' - Rev. 2:10

    Rev. 3:10 does not talking about the wrath of God, neither it talks about resurrection, neither it talks about caught up/gathering together. Neither, it talks about Christ's coming. It talks about temptations.

    Temptation is not wrath. Temptation means tests, trials, sufferings, persecutions.

    John 17:15 - Christ told His Father, not take them out of the world(sound like rapture?) but, asked Him to protect us from the evil, he means that we are protect from temptations.

    I want to show you what Matthew Henry Commentary say on Rev. 3:10- "By keeping the gospel they are prepared for the trial; and the same divine grace that has made them fruitful in times of peace will make them faithful in TIMES of persecutions."

    He told us, that we are commanded to keep the commandments, to make us fruitful while face the times of persecutions.

    'Hour of temptation' is not seven year of tribulation period.

    'Hour' of Rev. 3:10 - does not saying 3 1/2 years or 7 years either. Hour means period, time, era.

    Good example in Matt. 26:45, Jesus said, "Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the HOUR is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners." During Christ's prayer after Lord's supper. He asked his three disciples to stay wake up and watch him praying. He pray for one hour first time, after he finished pray, he checked on them, they asleep, He told them to wak up again and watch him praying. He prayed another hour second time. Then, he came to them, they still alseep, he woke them up again, asked them to watch him praying. He prayed another hour third time. Then, He came to them, they still asleep. He told them of Matt. 26:45. Notice 'the hour is at hand'. Does that mean, Christ will be crucified one hour later? No, he means that his TIME is arrrived that he is going to hang up on the cross for the sinners. He died about 12 hours later in the afternoon after he was arrested.

    We do not have to wait for 'hour of temptation' to arrive. Early Church already face temptations in their time. Church of Philadelphia during year 95 A.D., already face temptations. They faced persecutions, and trials, because they kept Christ's commandments. Even, throughout centuries, Christians already face temptations. Today, we are facing temptations daily anytime. Rev. 3:10 promises us, IF we keep His commandement, He will protect us from any temptations same 1 Cor. 10:13. OR...... IF we do not keep commandments, Christ will not protect us while face temptations, we will suffering the conclusions.

    Conculsion: Revelation 3:10 is not talking about the wrath of God. Neither, it talks about resurrection. Neither, it talks about caught up/gathering together. Neither, it talks about Christ's coming. It talks about the promise to us, IF we keep His commandments, He will protect us from the temptations same as John 17:15.

    Rev. 3:10 is not the evidence of pretrib.

    By the way, I do have books of Tim LaHaye, Hal Linsdey, Jack Van Impe, "Things to Come" by Dr. Pentacost. I know their beliefs very well. Also, myself was pretribber before. I know the pretribulational background very well.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  13. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    Nobody denies that believers go through tribulation. What we deny is that believers will go through THE tribulation.

    Why is that so hard for you people to understand?
     
  14. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    DD,

    THere is NO difference between 'tribulations' and 'great tribulation'. Both are same definition. Even, Ed Edwards defines there are five different types of tribulation.

    There are so many different kinds of tribulations we facing. Early Church already suffering eaten alive by wild beasts to death in Colossuem at Rome. Thousands of Christians were killed by catholics during Spanish Inquistion. Thousands of Christians were persecuted by Russia solderis during Communism time. Today, thousands of Christians are persecuting in China because of Communism. Also, thousands of Christians are persecuting by Muslims in Muslim countries.

    Arenh't we better than them?

    There are many different levels or kinds of tribulations, some are heavy, some are light, some are cheap, some are horrible, etc. Yet, all are same definition.

    Again, I ask you, what about 'saints' of Rev. 13:7,10; Rev. 14:12?

    Aren't we the saints - 1 Cor. 14:33?

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  15. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    dpt, you don't know pretrib as well as you think. Btw, I don't care for Ed's definitions and charts. He follows more of the LaHaye style of theology. I don't. Your box is just going to have to get bigger.

    First of all, they aren't the same. Christ said that certain events would happen and THEN would come great tribulation. That isn't the same thing as what Christians face every day all over the world. Christ had a specific time in mind.

    Second, it has nothing to do with us being better than anyone. It has everything to do with what Christ actually said.

    Finally, I am aware that there are saints during the tribulation. You lack the ability to say they are part of the church though. The church is a specific people (I WILL build my church).

    Your amill has clouded your judgment. Take the red pill.
     
  16. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    The easy answer is because SCripture makes those distinctions. Since dispensationalism is tied so rigidly to Scripture (too rigidly in many people's opinion), those distinctions are maintained.

    All of your passages that speaking of "one body" are referring to the church. That terminology is never used with reference to the OT saints.

    It is true that all saints of all time are saved by Christ (though certainly not through faith in Christ per se ... the OT saints knew nothing of that). The fact that all are saved the same way does not make all identical or all in the same body. Ultimately, all believers have the same destiny ... eternity in heaven with Christ.

    Beyond that, so much of this is a matter of hermeneutics.
     
  17. DeafPosttrib

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    I will reply back to you morre later, or tomorrow night to continue discuss about dispensationalism.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

    By the way, do you agree with all verses that Dave Taylor given?

    Then, DD, why do you think 'saints' of Rev. 13:7,10; 14:12, and more.. is not the part body of the Church?

    Please stop and ponder this...

    Look at Calvary.

    Eph. 2:12-16 telling us, Christ already reconciled both Jews and Gentiles unity together into ONE at once. That mean, there will be no longer divided again forever.

    Tell, me, shall God separates Gentiles out of Jews at the rapture at the beginning of the seven year tribulation period? If so, please prove me ONE verse in the Bible saying that God shall separate Gentiles out from Jews at rapture before tribulaiton period?

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  18. DeafPosttrib

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    Pastor Larry,

    I will reply it back later or tomorrow night. To discuss more about dispensationalism.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  19. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    dpt, come on now, read the posts prior to your objections.

    There are saints all throughout the Bible that are not part of the church. The church began at pentecost and ends at the rapture.

    The Eph. text you posted is about the church. It will forever exist and an entity that is neither jew nor gentile.

    Your insistance for a Bible verse on an interpretational issue really doesn't move the discussion. This is a matter of theological deduction based on the Scripture. The Scripture doesn't explicitly state alot of things. We must understand the Scriptures by proper exegesis.
     
  20. Russ Kelly

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    Somebody said earlier that if the Church-Israel distinction did not exist, then dispensationalism would not exist.

    Our reply is that we simply believe the literal and unconditional promises of God to national Isael in the Old Testament.

    Non dispies have to massacre the literal context of many passages such as Jeremiah 31:35-37.

    Jer 31:35-37
    35 Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The LORD of hosts is His name:
    36 "If this fixed order departs From before Me," declares the LORD, "Then the offspring of Israel also will cease From being a nation before Me forever."
    37 Thus says the LORD, "If the heavens above can be measured And the foundations of the earth searched out below, Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel NASU

    God made unconditional promises and gave an unconditional calling to believing national Israelites. He simply cannot and will not revoke those promises and still be God.

    Rom 11:29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. NASU
     

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