Why Does It Bother You?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Kidz-4-HIM, Jun 23, 2004.

  1. Kidz-4-HIM

    Kidz-4-HIM
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    The article that follows presents the view on the King James Bible issue that I so strongly hold to. It is an article by Pastor Mike Paulson from Touchet Baptist Church. I could not have said it better.

    Why Does it Bother You That We Are
    King James Only?
    The words of the LORD are pure words:
    as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
    Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
    Psalm 12:6,7

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    There are those of you 'brethren', so you call yourselves anyway, who would deny me my belief on the King James 1611 Bible being the inspired, pure and preserved words of God. You folks base your criticism on intensive study of the Bible and manuscript evidence falsely so-called (probably not your own studies and so you are just following a man as much as you criticize us for doing). You tell me the AV1611 has many errors in it. You tell me there have been "TEXTUAL" changes in the 7 editions of the AV1611. You all even taunt me about our use of the year 1611. After all, you say, we cannot even read an AV1611 without formatting the text with Roman Type. You would deny me the "ignorant" position of believing the AV1611 being infallible.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Let me ask you to answer the following questions about my position:
    1. How many people am I leading to Hell because I believe the AV1611 is infallible?

    2. How many young Christians will grow up with a stunted knowledge of the Bible, if I teach them to read it with the belief it is infallible and the very words of God?

    3. What is wrong with holding up the AV1611 and telling Bible-believing Christians, "You can trust every word"?

    4. How much of my reward will I lose for trusting God to keep his "WORDS" to every generation?

    5. If I am not allowed to believe the AV1611 is infallible, then which version should hold that distinction?

    6. If no version can hold that distinction, what do you suggest I tell my grand-children the next time they read Psalm 12:6-7?

    7. If I am forced to learn Hebrew and Greek before I can study the "words" of God, will you pay for our lessons?

    8. Please tell me why you still "preach from" the AV1611 but do not believe it is infallible?

    9. Which Bible do you use in your private studies and which one is the "best translation"?

    10. Why can't you just leave us "ignorant brethren" alone with our belief in the infallibility of the Scriptures [snipped]?


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I know I will continue to receive tons of comments telling me how stupid I am, and how ignorant of the truth I am, and how I am leading my friends astray holding up the "infallible" AV1611. But somehow, I cannot see the Lord condemning me for trusting Him and His promise in Psalm 12:6,7. Can anyone imagine I would make God angry because I believe He has preserved for me His inspired words, just as I believe He has promised?
    Come on..... What's wrong with believing the King James Bible Only?

    What do YOU have to offer in its place other than confusion - hundreds of different versions all saying different things - hundreds of different Greek texts all saying different things because you DO KNOW that the 'originals' are not available, right? You do know that, I hope!

    [ June 24, 2004, 12:07 AM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob Griffin ]
     
  2. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    This post violates Forum rule 8a:

    //8. Certain terms are off limits in this forum. For example:
    The KJVO crowd will not not refer to the Modern Versions as "perversions," "satanic," "devil's bibles," etc...nor call those that use them "Bible correctors," "Bible doubters," etc.//

    Request the Topic be removed from
    this board. Thank you.

    BTW, if you can't just delete the
    the topic, can you at least try to find
    out what title was intended and have
    a title that makes sense. Thank you.
     
  3. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Nobody can force you to do this. However, if you are interested in studying Hebrew, I would go one step further with you and not only pay for your lessons, but give you free lessons in Hebrew. If you will PM me, I will discuss with you how we could work this out.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  4. Kidz-4-HIM

    Kidz-4-HIM
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    sorry about the title I meant to say
    Does It Bother You
     
  5. Kidz-4-HIM

    Kidz-4-HIM
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    also sorry about violating the rule, when I noticed what I had done it was to late to edit please edit those words for me
     
  6. USN2Pulpit

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    K-4-H, what about Joseph's offer?
     
  7. Ed Edwards

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    Would you be so kind as to work with me
    to determine the meaning of some terms?
    These terms are used by Pastor Mike Paulson
    from Touchet Baptist Church:

    "King James 1611 Bible"

    "AV1611"

    I would like information leading to the selection
    of these items from my collection of some two
    dozen paper Bibles that I have on my comptuer desk.
    Thank you for your thoughful consideration.

    Here is a rough guide to help:

    ---------------------
    Which King James Version do you use?
    Here is a sample test:

    1. Ruth III:15d (KJV1611):

    ... and he went into the citie.

    2. Ruth 3:15 (KJV1769):

    ... and she went into the city.

    3. Ruth 3:15 (KJV1873):

    ... and he went into the city.

    I note that most KJV electronic sources
    are from the KJV1769.
    ---------------------------------
    [​IMG]
     
  8. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
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    1. How many people am I leading to Hell because I believe the AV1611 is infallible? Don't know. You are teaching them false doctrine so I cannot be sure what other errors you are sharing.

    2. How many young Christians will grow up with a stunted knowledge of the Bible, if I teach them to read it with the belief it is infallible and the very words of God? About every kjvo I've met thus far is "stunted" in their understanding of the Bible. They have allegiance to words they cannot define or understand. If you have to teach someone to read a version, that is sad.

    3. What is wrong with holding up the AV1611 and telling Bible-believing Christians, "You can trust every word"? Even the words added by the paedo-baptizing anglican priests? Even words in English with NO basis in any (zero, zip, nada) Greek document? So saying that these added words (or whole books - my AV1611 has the apocrypha and includes them in the daily "bible" reading) is adding to the Word of God and we all know what Revelation 22 says about that!!

    4. How much of my reward will I lose for trusting God to keep his "WORDS" to every generation? None. But where is ONE PROMISE that He will keep them in Jacobean English? Chapter and verse, please.

    5. If I am not allowed to believe the AV1611 is infallible, then which version should hold that distinction?Bingo. NO "VERSION" since all are made by man and thus fraught with error. You miss the whole point when you change from "Word of God" to "translation".

    6. If no version can hold that distinction, what do you suggest I tell my grand-children the next time they read Psalm 12:6-7? That this passage has nothing (zero, zip, nada) to do with preserving words. And even if it did, it has nothing to do with Jacobean English words.

    7. If I am forced to learn Hebrew and Greek before I can study the "words" of God, will you pay for our lessons?Cheapskate. I would pay a lot to study the Word of God in the original languages. Only a fool would stick with a translation (other men's choices of words and phrases) rather than go to the original.

    8. Please tell me why you still "preach from" the AV1611 but do not believe it is infallible? I don't. I use the NKJV sometimes and the NASB others. But always, always, always go to the Greek/Hebrew and translate it for myself first. Every word. I don't want to stand up and say "Thus saith the Lord" when I was really only parroting a bunch of Anglican priests.

    God forbid!

    9. Which Bible do you use in your private studies and which one is the "best translation"?I use the Greek and Hebrew. All families of texts. I translate it all. THEN I look at 6-7 major English translations to compare and see subtle nuances I overlook. Then about 20 commentaries.

    10. Why can't you just leave us "ignorant brethren" alone with our belief in the infallibility of the Scriptures?Because THEY are calling US evil names (snipped from YOUR post) and saying we who use the Greek/Hebrew do not have the Word of God! They have greater fidelity and loyalty to a version than to truth.

    And there you have it.
     
  9. USN2Pulpit

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    Looks like another "drive-by" by K4H.
     
  10. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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  11. HankD

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    Who started this thread?

    HankD
     
  12. David J

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    What bothers me is that so many KJVOist voilate this:

    Exodus 20:16,"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor." NASB

    Why did I write this? Ok, here is why:

    1. How many people am I leading to Hell because I believe the AV1611 is infallible?

    Not true unless you use a real AV1611! As far as Hell is concerned I don't know your doctrines therefore I can not say. I'm 99.9% sure that your not using a real AV1611.

    3. What is wrong with holding up the AV1611 and telling Bible-believing Christians, "You can trust every word"?

    Do you? If you use anything but a AV1611 then you are telling me a lie!

    5. If I am not allowed to believe the AV1611 is infallible, then which version should hold that distinction?

    Ok then, let me see your KJV and we will see if you are telling the truth!

    8. Please tell me why you still "preach from" the AV1611 but do not believe it is infallible?

    If you don't use a AV1611 then you believe it is fallible simply because you use a corrected AV1611!

    10. Why can't you just leave us "ignorant brethren" alone with our belief in the infallibility of the Scriptures

    Ignorance is no excuse to lie and slander!
     
  13. robycop3

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    I know I'm "talking" to an article and not Pastor Paulson, but Kidz seems to believe every word he wrote. Therefore, let's dissect the entire article:

    First, you begin with Ps 12:6-7, already a sign of not knowing the truth.


    There are those of you 'brethren', so you call yourselves anyway, who would deny me my belief on the King James 1611 Bible being the inspired, pure and preserved words of God.

    Actually, the opposite is true. You and your cohorts put down the other versions WE use, while WE only point out the PROVEN booboos in the KJV.


    You folks base your criticism on intensive study of the Bible and manuscript evidence falsely so-called (probably not your own studies and so you are just following a man as much as you criticize us for doing). You tell me the AV1611 has many errors in it.

    Proven repeatedly by FACT, not guesswork.


    You tell me there have been "TEXTUAL" changes in the 7 editions of the AV1611. You all even taunt me about our use of the year 1611. After all, you say, we cannot even read an AV1611 without formatting the text with Roman Type. You would deny me the "ignorant" position of believing the AV1611 being infallible.

    All the spin in the galaxy will NOT change the FACT that the AV 1611 is different from the commonly-used KJV editions of today.


    Let me ask you to answer the following questions about my position:
    1. How many people am I leading to Hell because I believe the AV1611 is infallible?


    That's between you and God, as you're telling them a lie.

    2. How many young Christians will grow up with a stunted knowledge of the Bible, if I teach them to read it with the belief it is infallible and the very words of God?

    PLENTY of them, if you teach them the lie that ONLY THE AV 1611 is valid.

    3. What is wrong with holding up the AV1611 and telling Bible-believing Christians, "You can trust every word"?

    Nothing, long as you don't put down someone else for doing the same with other versions.

    4. How much of my reward will I lose for trusting God to keep his "WORDS" to every generation?

    That depends upon how much you try to LIMIT GOD by declaring versions of His word to be false.

    5. If I am not allowed to believe the AV1611 is infallible, then which version should hold that distinction?

    Any number.

    6. If no version can hold that distinction, what do you suggest I tell my grand-children the next time they read Psalm 12:6-7?

    The TRUTH. If you have an authentic AV 1611, you can read these verses for yourself, along with the translators' marginal note for V.7. We shall begin with V.5, as it "sets the tone" for the verses that follow it:

    5 "For the oppreffion of the poore, for the fighing of the needy, now will I arife (faith the LORD,) I will fet him in faftie from him that puffeth at him. 6 The wordes of the LORD are pure words : as filuer tried in a fornace of earth purified feuen times. 7 Thou fhalt keepe them, (O LORD,) thou fhalt preferue them, from this generation for euer."

    Marginal note, V.7: Heb. him, i. euery one of them.

    7. If I am forced to learn Hebrew and Greek before I can study the "words" of God, will you pay for our lessons?

    I'm sure some Christian will instruct you for free if you ask around.

    8. Please tell me why you still "preach from" the AV1611 but do not believe it is infallible?

    I don't.

    9. Which Bible do you use in your private studies and which one is the "best translation"?

    NKJV. AV 1611. KJV, later editions. NIV. NASB.

    10. Why can't you just leave us "ignorant brethren" alone with our belief in the infallibility of the Scriptures [snipped]?

    Actually, WE should be the ones asking that. It's the KJVO camp which puts down other BVs, while WE never advocate discarding the KJV.


    I know I will continue to receive tons of comments telling me how stupid I am, and how ignorant of the truth I am, and how I am leading my friends astray holding up the "infallible" AV1611.

    Only if you spread the KJVO lie about the other versions.

    But somehow, I cannot see the Lord condemning me for trusting Him and His promise in Psalm 12:6,7.

    Actually, you're trusting a SDA official's words over those of the AV translators, who showed their belief about the meaning of those verses in their marginal note. BTW, the Geneva Bible reads "him" rather than "them" in V,7.


    Can anyone imagine I would make God angry because I believe He has preserved for me His inspired words, just as I believe He has promised?
    Come on..... What's wrong with believing the King James Bible Only?


    Nothing-if you keep such a belief to yourself and not condemn soneone else who believes differently.

    What do YOU have to offer in its place other than confusion - hundreds of different versions all saying different things - hundreds of different Greek texts all saying different things because you DO KNOW that the 'originals' are not available, right? You do know that, I hope!

    So you arbitrarily pick-n-choose one and say, "This is it!" without the slightest proof. Yeah, right...
     
  14. robycop3

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    Kidz, please allow me to ask YOU some questions. You may forward them to Pastor Paulson if you wish, and you can post HIS answers.(Or he can post them himself.)

    1. Where was the preserved, perfect, infallible word of God IN ENGLISH in 1610?

    2. Where is the Scriptural support for KJVO?

    3. Is KJVO of God, or MAN? I've shown it's of man. If you believe it's of God, please provide proof for your answer as I've done for mine. You know MY answer; let's see YOURS.

    4. Can you prove the NKJV, NASV, or NIV are not the word of GOD? Just saying "It aint the KJV" won't do.

    5. Since we believe God has preserved His word from the time He first presented it to man, and every English version is different from any other, by what criteria do you choose the KJV to be the only "official" version?
     
  15. DeclareHim

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    He cant stand and argue they cant. They have no legit arguement.
     
  16. Craigbythesea

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    When I see a cat, I know that it is a cat rather than a mouse. I also know the difference between a horse and a cow. If you believe that the words quoted above were written by a man of God, I suggest that you have a serious problem.

    The author that you are quoting begins by questioning the saving faith of countless individuals for whom Christ died, and who have spent a lifetime in faithful service to God as born-again Christians. By attacking them as your author does, he is attacking not only them, but the Christ who died for them, and the Holy Spirit who indwells them, and the Father who sacrificed His only begotten Son and gave them the promise of the Holy Spirit. Such hate, such disdain for God, is, in my opinion, unforgivable unless the author repents of his sin.

    I have known many men who committed their very lives to the study of Bible and made unspeakable personal and financial sacrifices to do so. I have personally seen men go without food and live in extreme poverty to buy Hebrew and Greek grammars, lexicons, and other books that are essential for learning how to read and understand a Book that was written in languages very different from English.

    Any worthless bum can panhandle four quarters and buy a King James translation of the Bible in a thrift store. But some very important Bible study tools, like the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, cost hundreds of dollars and are not for sale in thrift stores. Today, books are so expensive that a basic library for a pastor costs more than a new Cadillac. And many pastors experience the agony of seeing their wives and children suffer from want for years while they struggle and struggle to save enough money to buy the books that they need so that they can accurately present to their congregations the Word of God. These are the men who are truly men of God. Those who make no sacrifice to study the Word of God, yet condemn those who do, shall receive a very different reward on judgment day. :(
     
  17. Craigbythesea

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    1. How many people am I leading to Hell because I believe the AV1611 is infallible?

    You are free to believe whatever you wish, and as long as your belief does not influence the faith of anyone else, your belief will not lead anyone to hell (with one possible exception :eek: ). But the moment that you influence another person to believe what is false, you have thereby harmed that individual :( . And if that individual consequently believes and teaches others the false doctrine, the harm done is magnified :( :( . And if those individuals become so wrapped up in their belief that they willfully lie and distort the truth to persuade others to adopt their belief (as I have personally witnessed among KJOists), they are in severe danger of spending eternity in hell. :eek:
     
  18. mioque

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    "Why Does it Bother You That We Are
    King James Only?"
    ''
    Because I have floors to wax, a library to organize, articles to publish, trips to arrange for and windows to clean*.
    I don't have time or energy left to beat the nonsense out of our Sundayschoolteachers every time they come up with some peabrained notion about the nature of the universe.
    It is none of my bussiness as long as the whole KJVO thing takes place on the other side of the Atlantic, but I don't want it infecting my own backyard.
    I had trouble enough convincing the Sundayschoolteachers that the pope doesn't walk around with a crown on his head saying:"I'm the Beast from the Book of Revelations!".


    *Do you have any idea how much work some stained glass windows can be?!
     
  19. Ed Edwards

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    Amen, Sister Mioque -- Preach it!. [​IMG]

    The whole KJVO counter arguments are a drain on
    time. But if their claims go unanswered here
    in the states, they will (in fact already have)
    spread abroad. As many as a Billion Chinamen
    could stay lost because they don't read
    one of the KJVs.

    In the late 1960s, when KJVOism was only
    2% of the IFB groups, it didn't seem much
    of a problem. SO stupid, nobody would buy
    into is unless they abandoned God.
    Little did I know then what all they
    would abandon:

    -------------------------------------
    The fundamentals of fundamentalism:

    1. the inspiration and infallibility of scripture
    2. the deity of Christ (including His virgin birth)
    3. the substitutionary atonement of Christ's death
    4. the literal resurrrection of Christ from the dead
    5. the literal return of Christ in the Second Advent

    The fundamentals of anti-fundamentalism
    (these are the noisy ones called "fundies"):

    1. Anti-Modern Version (KJBO = King James Bible Only)
    2. Anti-education
    3. Anti-success
    4. Anti-women pants on women
    5. Anti-Semetic

    Typical statements of the anti-fundamentalist called
    by the world "fundies":

    1. The KJB replaces the origial language manuscripts
    as being God's word
    2. Calling "seminary": "cemetery"
    3. Billy Grahmn sold himself to the Devil
    4. (this is generic for all cult-like rules of behavior;
    all majoring on minors)
    5. Jews killed Christ
    ----------------------------

    Why does it bother me?
    Because it is of the antichrist spirit.
     
  20. Joseph_Botwinick

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