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Featured Why does John 1:2 say Jesus is God?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Rev. Autrey, Aug 11, 2014.

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  1. Rev. Autrey

    Rev. Autrey New Member

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    Again, for the sake of peace in our fellowship, I will use the term person, instead of the term personality. You are right in saying that there are distincet differences between the terms in todays usage. So from now on in this discussion I will say persons. The early church fathers used the term peson, and that is good enough for me.

    Rev. Autrey
     
    #41 Rev. Autrey, Aug 13, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 13, 2014
  2. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Revmitchell, you owe Rev. Autrey an apology.
     
    #42 kyredneck, Aug 13, 2014
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  3. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    <duplicate post>
     
    #43 kyredneck, Aug 13, 2014
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  4. JamesL

    JamesL Well-Known Member
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    When you say the early church fathers used the word "Person", what do you mean "early" ?
     
    #44 JamesL, Aug 13, 2014
  5. jonathan.borland

    jonathan.borland Active Member

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    It doesn't. It does say that the Word was with God though. It says the same thing a verse earlier but in addition expresses that the Word was in fact divine.

    BTW, the reason everyone is questioning you is because the language you use is equivocal to the so-called Oneness doctrine, which is considered unacceptable on this board. Please quietly leave before I make my case to the administrators using our own words.
     
    #45 jonathan.borland, Aug 14, 2014
  6. Rev. Autrey

    Rev. Autrey New Member

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    The early church fathers are the church leaders who conducted the Council of Nicea in 325 AD. The Council of Nicea overwhelmingly affirmed the deity and eternality of Jesus Christ (that Christ was God) and defined the relationship between the Father and the Son as “of one substance.” It also affirmed the Trinity—the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were listed as three co-equal and co-eternal Persons.

    The main theological issue had always been about Christ. Being the Son of God, is He co-equal and co-eternal with the Father, or is He lower in status than the Father? Is the Father the one true God, or are the Father, Son, and Spirit the one true God?

    A priest named Arius presented his argument that Jesus Christ was not an eternal being, that He was created at a certain point in time by the Father. Bishops such as Alexander and the deacon Athanasius (who wrote the Athanasian Creed) argued the opposite position: that Jesus Christ is eternal, just like the Father is. It was an argument pitting trinitarianism against monarchianism (that the Father is the Only God).

    The statement of doctrine they produced was one that all of Christianity would follow and obey, called the “Nicene Creed.” This creed was upheld by the church and enforced by the Emperor. The bishops at Nicea voted to make the full deity of Christ (that he is God) the accepted position of the church. The Council of Nicea upheld the doctrine of Christ’s true divinity, rejecting Arius’s heresy. The council did not invent this doctrine. Rather, it only recognized what the Bible already taught.

    The Athanasian Creed, widely used since the 6th cntury by Western Churches was on of the first creeds to use the word Persons: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence.


    You can read more by looking up the Council of Nicea on internet.

    I hope this helps!

    Rev. Autrey
     
    #46 Rev. Autrey, Aug 14, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 14, 2014
  7. Rev. Autrey

    Rev. Autrey New Member

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    This is what John 1:1 says:"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

    Your problem is, you do not want Jesus to be God. But he is. We are Christ's people. And if, in fact, he is not God, then why do we name ourselves after someone who is a lesser figure than God."

    Rev. Autrey
     
    #47 Rev. Autrey, Aug 14, 2014
  8. Rev. Autrey

    Rev. Autrey New Member

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    Please give me instructions oh how to resign, and I will!

    Rev. Autrey
     
    #48 Rev. Autrey, Aug 14, 2014
  9. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Just asking;


    Was Levi with Abraham when Abraham paid the tithe to Melchisedec?
     
    #49 percho, Aug 14, 2014
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    We all hold here that Jesus was/is God, or else we would be banned off the Board!

    real question is for you, do you hold that while God was here on earth as Jesus, that God the father and the Holy Spirit also existed as 2 seperate persons of God?

    When Jesus prayed to the father, that was a real and distincr person from himself?
     
    #50 Yeshua1, Aug 14, 2014
  11. Rev. Autrey

    Rev. Autrey New Member

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    Yes, Jesus is a real and distinct person from the Father!
    But let me explain!.

    There is only One God, that means that God is one substance or one being.
    The Athanasian Creed states: "And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance."

    If God's substance is not divided, that means that God the Son (Jesus) is not a separate entity from God the Father. Jesus said it this way: "When you see me you see the Father." "Just believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me." "The Father and I are One." I will state this plainly, the Bible teaches that The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the same God. In other words, they are distinct from each other but not separate.

    I know this is not easy for us to understand. But, we must believe it because this is how Jesus said it is. Yes, to the natural mind it does not make sense. But no revelation from God ever makes sence. We just take it in faith.

    We are constantly growing in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ, and will continue to do so even when we are in heaven!

    About who Jesus prayed to, his prayers were just a continuation of the conversations within the Godhead (the Godhead is God) that he had with the Father before the world began (John 17:5). Within God there was always conversation. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit constantly talked to each other. This is how the One God made his decisions. This process continued even while God spoke to us on earth through his 2nd person Jesus. Jesus put them in the form of a prayer to show us that we too whould pray to God.

    An example of this conversation within the Godhead is seen in Genesis 1:26:"Then God said, 'Let US make man in OUR image in in OUR likeness." The US and the OUR are the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. See what I mean? They discussed making us before we were made."

    Another example is seen in what Jesus said to Nicodemus. John 3 states: "Jesus replied, 'You are a respected Jewish teacher, and you don't understand these things? I assure you, I am telling you what WE know and have seen, and you won't believe US." This is the same US that Genesis 1 was talking about; conversation within the Godhead. But as we know, there is only one God.

    Yes, Jesus is distinct from the Father, but not separate. If he were a separate entity that would mean that we have two Gods, or three, if we also say that the Holy Spirit is separate. No Christian would ever say there are three Gods.

    It took many years for God to reveal this to me. Now he is revealing it to you! We are both God's ministers, and we both love Jesus. We can exchange information on this subject that would help both of us. LET'S WORK TOGETHER. This way we can help our fellow Baptist.

    But, if you insist, I will resign for the benefit of harmony witin our group!

    Rev. Autrey
     
    #51 Rev. Autrey, Aug 14, 2014
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  12. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    The Arian controversy lasted hundreds of years and tore the early church apart. The early Church gathered on more than one occasion to deal with the seriousness of the Arian error. There was more than one iteration of the Nicene Creed, but at its core the Nicene Creed served to correct the error that the Son of God was a created being, or a lesser God.

    While the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all equally God, they are also separate persons. They are not three Gods. Shema yisrael adonai eliohenu adonai echad (Hear, O Israel. The Lord is God The Lord, He is One), Deut. 6:4.

    The Son of God is eternal. We describe it as the eternal generation of the Son. Jesus has always been the Son of God. There was never a time when He was not the Son of God. This includes the infinite period of time before His incarnation. He is the Alpha and the Omega (Rev. 1:8), euphemistic terms for the Son being eternal.

    The Son of God is not the Father, although He represents the Father's glory to the extent that any human is capable of seeing God's glory.

    Hebrews 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.

    John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.

    We catch of glimpse of the Father through the Son, not because the Son is the Father, but because the Son is the exact representation of the Father's nature. We must be clear on this because error can sound so close to the truth. We cannot be lead astray by convincing arguments. When Rev. Autrey writes:

    Is he saying that prior to his recent epiphany that he was not Trinitarian? Was he an Arian or a Modalist prior to his new found view (and for those of you who eschew labels, here is a perfect example of why they are useful)? How can he say that it took many years for God to reveal this new view to him, and now he is revealing it to us? Is he somehow suggesting that the majority of us have been deceived in our understanding of the Trinity prior to him opening our eyes?

    My suspicion is deep.
     
    #52 Reformed, Aug 14, 2014
  13. Rev. Autrey

    Rev. Autrey New Member

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    To all who read my posts:

    This is my last post on the Baptist Debate Forums. I have done what I was supposed to do, now I must move on. I shared with you my knowledge of Jesus as God. Yes, it was God who came to earth as Jesus and died for our sins. And it is God as Jesus who is coming back again to take us to heaven.

    May God bless you until that glorous day!

    Rev. Autrey
     
    #53 Rev. Autrey, Aug 14, 2014
  14. Rev. Autrey

    Rev. Autrey New Member

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    The early church father were priest
     
    #54 Rev. Autrey, Aug 15, 2014
  15. JamesL

    JamesL Well-Known Member
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    The ante Nicene fathers weren't priests. They were bishops, presbyters, elders, overseers.

    That's why I asked what you meant by "early". I could tell you were centering your focus on and around Nicea. Not what I call early.

    I can also appreciate that you're looking to connect 21st century American Christianity to 4th century Christianity. It seems you've been reading the Nicene and Athanasian creeds, and as you started to think you understood them, you have noticed that there s somewhat of a disconnect between then and now

    And as you start thinking you understand those creeds, it can definitely start to feel like God is enlightening you.

    However, if you go back even further, you just might start to see a disconnect between scripture and Nicea.

    Don't be ashamed of where you're at in your search. But also, don't start to think you've unlocked all eternal mysteries based on how you understand a 4th century creed

    Those creeds were never intended to replace scripture. They were simply a way of expressing what those believers thought scripture was saying.

    And don't bow out quietly because of the paranoia of one guy who doesn't understand your search.
     
    #55 JamesL, Aug 15, 2014
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Just seems to smack of what I heard and was exposed to in the United pentacostalist church!
     
    #56 Yeshua1, Aug 15, 2014
  17. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    ?'s

    Did the, only begotten of the Father, Jesus, possess mitochondrial DNA?
    Did he eternally possess mitochondrial DNA or was there a specific moment in time when the Son of God possessed mitochondrial DNA? Was the virgin Mary necessary for that possession? Could the Son of God have been sent in the fullness of time without birth from the virgin?
     
    #57 percho, Aug 15, 2014
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