Why does Judas suffer?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by whetstone, Jul 16, 2005.

  1. whetstone

    whetstone
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    Judas, burning in the fires of hell. Are these some of the things he cries out?

    "But Lord, you are the propitiation for my sins! 1 John 2:2 says you are! Why isn't your propitiation doing me any good?!"

    "Lord, you are the savior of the world according to many verses! Why am I not part of the world?"

    "Lord, didn't 2 Peter 3:9 say you aren't willing that I should perish? How did I end up here if you aren't willing?"


    Is Judas joined by a host of damned souls who scream out the same questions?

    No.

    They know the scriptures. They don't misapply or misinterpret them like some on earth do. They know full well that Christ's blood only covers the saints in glory, and that God isn't willing that any of US should perish. Instead, the damned cry out:

    "The wages of sin is death...death..."

    "He that believeth not is condemned already..."


    Judas suffers alone in hell, no hope, no love, no blood of Christ to heal his wounds. Only wrath.

    Why do we make the blood of none effect by saying it was applied universally? Why should the damned suffer if they are under this blood? If you fall under conviction by God for doing injustice to the precious blood of Christ, why not ask God for forgiveness? He'll be happy to restore you to fellowship and lead you in paths of righteousness.

    Daniel Allen
    www.spurgeon.us
     
  2. billwald

    billwald
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    Assumes facts not in evidence. We don't have a list of the people in Hell.
     
  3. whetstone

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    Judas is in hell:

    Jhn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
     
  4. yeshua4me2

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    and judas had no choice but to betray Jesus, otherwise the scriptures would not be fulfilled, to say he had a choice is crazy, that makes salvation a choice of judas (wether or no to betray him), i suspect that Judas went down the only path that was available to him (by his understanding), force Jesus to claim His throne. if we have a choice then later we can choose to change our mind, i know my mind is fixed on salvaion.
     
  5. BobRyan

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    I think it is a "given" that Judas dies as a lost person -- hangs himself in dispair. (THis is true even though technically he is the ONLY disciple at Christ's trial that publicly admits that Christ is innocent and confronts the Jewish leaders with that fact. Even exposing their backdoor "deal" to betray Christ!)

    But the argument of Whetstone is not any different for Judas than for ANY of the LOST!

    Whetstone argues that when God "SAYS HE so loved the World and SAYS He is the atoning SACRIFICE for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" God is not being very "successful".

    What Whetstone seems to "PREFER" is that Judas and aLL the lost were thinking that INSTEAD of Christ SUFFERING for ALL their sins and LOVING them as HIS OWN without any bias at all (Rom 2:9-12) - Whetstone seems to argue that the lost would PREFER that God would say "ALL that was just trick marketing and trick advertizing to make me APPEAR to be more loving and generous than I really am. IN FACT I do not even CARE for you at all!!"

    How do we know this - well we "paid attention" to the Calvinist glee professed at SEEING their own loved ones in torment in Rev 14:10!!!

    Seems like a good place to post the "perfected" Calvinist view of those in hell.

    Coming right up!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. BobRyan

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    &lt;You see the problem when the Calvinist model is not “allowed the luxury" of disregarding the fate of the lost - as in the case above?&gt;

    Here we see Calvinism’s view of God who (arbitrarily from the POV of human eyes) selects out the FEW of Matt 7 and loves THEM alone - and then represents that to Calvinists as "So Loving the World". Oh the pure joy that thought must cause the Calvinist mind.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Calvinist future scenario complete!


    Notice the “focus” in that perfect Calvinist utopian future - is always on “you” the one that is arbitrarily selected and then justifying the callous disregard of your precious child under the guise of “Well God does not HAVE to care about ANYONE just be glad YOU made it”.
    Fascinating!

    All well and good for the Cavlinist position - but what about the Arminian view?

    And for us Arminians (and our 3-Pt Calvinist Bretheren) - well we will just have to be content with the fact that God really DOES "So Love the World" not merely the "Few " of Matt 7 - and He is the "Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT our sins only - but for those of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2::2.

    We will have to be content in all eternity with the God that DOES Love ALL and died for ALL and "IS not WILLING for any to perish but for ALL to come to Repentance". Somehow that will have to help us enjoy eternity too. I wonder how we will fair by comparison.
     
  7. BobRyan

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    By contrast to Calvinism's diminshed Gospel presentation illustrated above - how does the BIBLE portray our all-loving all-knowing just God when it comes to HIS sorrow over the case of the wicked - lost sinner?!!

    ======================================
    When the “unchanging God” weeps and grieves over the lost - He is not simply pretending so we will be duped into "thinking" He loves them and works for their salvation, when in fact He cares nothing at all for our children and loved ones that are “not elect”.

    God’s Grieving involves tears as a parent weeps for a lost child!!

    Lament over Jerusalem
    God is sorrowful and GRIEVES for the lost and for the fact that He has done so much to win them - yet they TURN away.
    God’s Spirit is grieved by the rebellion of His CHOSEN people His HOLY nation His ROYAL priesthood. Yes even by the LOST among them – even the worst among them.
    ALL of God’s Compassion is stirred up within Him over the finally lost!

    God will be displeased with the saints IF they rejoice at the fall/judgment of the wicked!
     
  8. BobRyan

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    Johnathan Edwards seems to imply great joy even to the point of enthusiastic REJOICING at the Rev 14:10 sight of loved ones in torment!

     
  9. BobRyan

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    Edwards confirms the rejoicing in the suffering of the lost AND the FOCUS as being "ALL about ME ME ME" the one SAVED - as opposed to any precious child of mine I watch suffering in torment ....

    How sad!
     
  10. OCC

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    "But Lord, you are the propitiation for my sins! 1 John 2:2 says you are! Why isn't your propitiation doing me any good?!"

    "Lord, you are the savior of the world according to many verses! Why am I not part of the world?"

    "Lord, didn't 2 Peter 3:9 say you aren't willing that I should perish? How did I end up here if you aren't willing?"

    Is Judas joined by a host of damned souls who scream out the same questions?"

    Who cares? How does this edify myself and everyone else?
     
  11. whetstone

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    The point is more unsettling than edifying, namely- Judas CAN'T say these things. The blood DOESN'T cover him and he is NOT experiencing any benefit from Christ's sacrifice.
     
  12. BobRyan

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    He should be "comforted" then knowing that Christ never cared at aLL for Him and that Christ does NOT "SO LOVE THE WORLD" nor is He the "AToning SACRIFICE for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" as God's Word says. It will be of great comfort to Judas to know that God's word is sheer marketing hype when it comes to his case and the case of the lost. (At least that's what the Calvinist view seems to be).

    Edwards seems to have pegged them pretty well rejoicing not only to watch Judas' torment but even their own precious children!!

    Meanwhile those who care about the Bible and what IT says - notice the post of all the texts SHOWING God to care EVEN about the LOST!!

    But then - that would be the Bible! Something more in line with the Arminian POV!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. OCC

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    The point is more unsettling than edifying, namely- Judas CAN'T say these things. The blood DOESN'T cover him and he is NOT experiencing any benefit from Christ's sacrifice. </font>[/QUOTE]But Whetstone, how does that edify anyone? Nobody grows in their faith arguing over whether or not Judas is experiencing the benefit of the blood of Christ. Maybe he could have but he chose not to and is now in hell. Maybe I'm missing something.
     
  14. webdog

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    The point is more unsettling than edifying, namely- Judas CAN'T say these things. The blood DOESN'T cover him and he is NOT experiencing any benefit from Christ's sacrifice. </font>[/QUOTE]Gods Word says different in Matthew 26:26-31, Mark 14:22-25, Luke 22:14-20. Did Jesus lie to Judas? Judas was clearly at the Lord's Supper, and did drink from the cup, symbolizing Christ's blood shed for him, also.
     
  15. whetstone

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    i've answered this objection before a while back and I'm tired of it. I'll wait till JohnP. shows up to save the day lol. [​IMG]
     
  16. johnp.

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    16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

    Many drink of the cup and do not receive anything.
    The one prophesied about as the friend that lifted up his heel against Jesus did as was prophesied.

    I suppose if God wizzed along to see what Judas would do and then prophesied what he would do then God still created him for Hell having the oppotunity not to create those that would end up in Hell. That is 'God so loved the world'? But then we would not see His wrath and that is what it is about isn't it? Mercy was not extended to Judas.

    Judas was a thief not a freedom fighter. John 12:6 He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.
    Jesus made Judas the keeper of the money.

    john.
     
  17. billwald

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    Judas is probably in "Forgive them . . ." unless one ascribes full knowledge to Judas. He didn't know what he was doing.
     
  18. James_Newman

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    How does being in hell nullify the power of the blood? According to scripture, death and hell will give up the dead that are in them. Then whosoever is not found in the book of life is cast into the lake of fire. If Judas is found in the book of life, he will be raised up on the last day just as Christ promised.
     
  19. webdog

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    The fact is:
    1. Judas did drink from the cup, whether he had faith or not.
    2. Jesus said the cup symbolizes His blood "...shed for you" to ALL the disciples, Judas included.
    3. Christ's blood atoned for Judas, whether he had faith or not.

    BTW, hell was created for the devil and his angels.
     
  20. whetstone

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    I have answered this objection in a new post here: http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/35/1525.html?
     

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