Why does one lose their salvation?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by BCF Jeff, Jul 8, 2006.

  1. BCF Jeff

    BCF Jeff
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    I am a pastor of a small church. I believe and teach the the believer is eternally secure. However if you have two baptists in a room you'll have at least three opinions.;)

    I have two church members that believe that if a saint sins enough and does not repent then he will lose his salvation. They are both dear people and faithful in every way.

    I have always felt that the answer to the question, "Can you lose your salvation," is not a litmus test for christianity or orthodoxy.

    I ask the question not to neccesarly debate the issue but to gain a better understanding of this belief.

    :type:
     
  2. LeBuick

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    My suggestion is to get them alone, the two of them and you and don't be offensive or defensive but ask them to explain why they have this belief. You may have to get each one alone and see which one really has the belief and which is just the suporter.

    I have had to do this with several members and I find it really effective. In fact, the word at the Church is, bring your Bible when pastor wants to see you :). Don't let him give you his...

    What ever you do never comfront them in front of others as they will be defensive and do all they can to defend their stand.
     
  3. Helen

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    We are His sheep. Since when is a sheep responsible for itself? He will finish the good work He began in us (Phil 1:6). Either that or the Bible is lying.

    Perhaps your two people are confusing losing salvation, which is impossible, with losing rewards, which is very possible.
     
  4. BCF Jeff

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    Let me again thank you guys for your help. I am very well aware of why I have eternal security. As this is my position. What I am seek is the other position's statement of how one might lose their salvation. I am familiar with the scripture that are often taken of context so that appear to indicate the possibly to be lost again. What I am seeking is the reason one believes he will lose salvation.

    All of the following are my guesses of why someone might think God would desert them.

    1. God saves from current and past sins not future therefore if you sin in the future you will lose your salvation.
    This is easy refuted by many scripture my faverote states that Chrsit died for our sin, once for all.

    2. Christ died for some sins but not all therefore if you commit certain sins (such as suicide denying Christ, ect) you can be lost again.
    Again this is a no brainer. the argument is not supported anywhere in scripture.

    Anyhow I don't want to build a bunch of strawmen so that I can look good tareing them down. Instead I want to hear their side of the argument that I might better understand what they believe.

    Who knows I maybe wrong and they may change my mind. I used to be dispensational before study the scripture in greater detail. I want to know the reasoning be hind their position.
     
  5. standingfirminChrist

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    I have debated the suicide thing many times and will continue to debate it. Since the Bible tells us that 'a good tree cannot bear evil fruit', and we are likened to trees in many places in the Bible, and suicide is not a fruit unto righteousness, but of the devil... one who commits suicide cannot have been saved.

    It is true one cannot lose one's salvation. But if one shows evil fruit without any sign of remorse or repentance, and never feels the chastening hand of God, we can let the Word of God judge that one as a person who never truly was of the household of faith.

    Too many today wear the name 'Christian' and do not even know what it means, don't even live the life.
     
    #5 standingfirminChrist, Jul 8, 2006
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2006
  6. BCF Jeff

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    I didn't really want to debate much but this is slightly off subject as I believe you are say if someone commits suicide was never really saved. However, I am not convinced that is what the writer was talking about there. Using that interpritation of that passage might lead to say if one bears any "evil fruit" they are again lost. Any sin might be considered evil fruit.
     
  7. BCF Jeff

    BCF Jeff
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    standingfirminChrist,

    I am not affirming the suicide is in any way acceptable. What I am saying is that if that scripture can be applied to suicide it can and will (by some) be applied to many other sins.
     
  8. standingfirminChrist

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    Jeff,

    John wrote that the child of God 'cannot sin, for his seed remaineth in him.'

    Yet in the previous chapter John said 'if we sin we have an advocate with the Father; Jesus Christ the Righteous.'

    We, because we are in the flesh, will sin from time to time. Paul struggled with it... read Romans 7. Paul said 'the evil that I would not, that I do.'

    I believe the true child of God will not willfully sin, as shown in 1 John 3. The Spirit of the Living God remains in us and will not allow us to continue in the same sins over and over and over.

    If one claims to be a christian and say, steals on a daily basis, without repenting of that, without feeling the chastening hand of God in their life, they cannot be saved. For the Lord chastens whom He loves. And we know He loves all that are His.

    Suicide is not of God. I do not believe God will allow His children to commit suicide. As a matter of fact, 1 Cor. 10:13 tells us He will not allow more to be put on us than we can bear. If one commits suicide, then God has allowed more to be put on that one than he was able to bear. Can't happen to a true child of God.
     
  9. standingfirminChrist

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    Suicide is a fruit of the devil. Now, since suicide is murdering one's self, and the Bible says 'all murderers' will have their part in the lake of fire, and one cannot repent of murder of one's self, then satan has deceived that one to the point that that one has proved that his or her faith was not in the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Now, if I went out today and murdered someone today or stole, or lied, or committed any other sin, and repented and asked God to forgive me, He is faithful, He is just to forgive me and cleanse me. The slate would be as if clean. My sins would be cast into the depth of the sea to be remembered no more against me.
     
  10. LeBuick

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    This is why I suggest speaking with them privately with an open mind and no agenda. Let the LORD lead the meeting. Make sure to start and end with prayer. Like you said, they may have a good point.
     
  11. LeBuick

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    Since one who is saved is dead to sin, can he be a murderer?
     
  12. BCF Jeff

    BCF Jeff
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    standingfirminChrist,

    Jesus, in the Sermon on the Mount equates hate and murder. If I hate someone at the point of death will I expierence the second death because I didn't confess in time.
     
  13. standingfirminChrist

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    He that says he loves God and hates his brother is a liar and the love of God is not in him.

    If you leave this world with hatred in your heart for another human being, you are bearing evil fruit and the Word of God judges you to be unsaved.
     
    #13 standingfirminChrist, Jul 8, 2006
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2006
  14. standingfirminChrist

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    Intentionally? No. Accidentally? Yes.
     
  15. BCF Jeff

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    Even in the Mosaic law accidental murder is man slaughter not murder.

    BTW, standingfirminChrist, Can the redeemed commit any sin or are they already made perfect in both practical and legal standings?

    I believe all sin is intentional.

    If any sin after conversion condemns the saint then what about Peter who sinned in Acts by seperating himself from the gentile believers so that Paul had to rebuke him. Was he again lost?
     
  16. standingfirminChrist

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    Not all sin is intentional. Paul stated...

    The evil that I would not, that I do, is unintentional.
     
  17. standingfirminChrist

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    As I stated before, we will sin from time to time because of the flesh. 1 John 2 bears this out, as does Romans 7.

    Paul ends Romans 7 showing that the flesh and the Spirit war against each other. Sometimes the flesh gives into temptations. I do not beleiive the true child of God will intentionally sin, as 1 John 3 states that

    I do not see the true child of God intentionally committing sin. The Holy Spirit is there to keep the true child of God from doing that which is against God's Law.
     
  18. BCF Jeff

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    James 1:14-16
    (14) But each person is tempted when he is drawn away and enticed by his own evil desires.
    (15) Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and when sin is fully grown, it gives birth to death.
    (16) Don't be deceived, my dearly loved brothers.

    We sin when we our enticed by our own desires. That would be intintionally chosing my will over Christ's.

    I believe Paul was expressing his struggles with the flesh not making excuses for them instead I would apply this as a demonstration of the progressive nature of sanctification (The ideal is that we are justified immediately upon conversion but sanctified over time. Growing or maturing in Christ.)

    Romans 7:14-17
    (14) For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am made out of flesh, sold into sin's power.
    (15) For I do not understand what I am doing, because I do not practice what I want to do, but I do what I hate.
    (16) And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
    (17) So now I am no longer the one doing it, but it is sin living in me.
     
  19. Pipedude

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    Your best bet is to ask them, but be prepared for an inconsistent answer. The craft of theology involves painstakingly making fine distinctions, and most folks have neither the time nor the education to pursue such a discipline very far.

    I suspect that they are following out the logic of garden-variety Arminianism: "If I can decide to accept Christ, I can decide to reject him; and gross, outward, persistent sin is rejecting him, just like serial adultery is rejecting one's marriage." Then, of course, the "falling away" verses come into play.

    There are elaborate arguments for conditional security, but your members probably don't know them. Theologically, conditional securitists believe that God's keeping power is appropriated through faith, and faith can be smothered and killed if not allowed to express itself in works. The deadline cannot be identified, but someone trying to find the line is already set on rebellion, so it's an illegitimate question--sort of like asking your wife how many times you can slap her before she would divorce you.

    Sometimes when I find someone in error (i.e., they disagree with me) and they seem pretty set in their ways, my strategy is to encourage them to "go ahead and believe that, so long as you don't believe it too much." If they are, indeed, "dear people," it might be the best you could do.
     
  20. BCF Jeff

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    This too has been my strategy as they rarely challnge me and when they do I have always allowed them to make their point by quoting various falling away verses. After they quote the verse I then share the context of the scripture which always confirms security. I have always believed that their belief, although flawed, is still with in the orthodox faith. We have basically agreed to disagree.

    Your discription of their logic is a very interesting and helpful incite as why one might lose their salvation. If this is where they err than the err is they believe the chose Christ before Christ shose them.
     

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