Why Foreknowledge = Predestinated Damnation

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Mark Osgatharp, Nov 1, 2005.

  1. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    [ADAPTED FROM WHETSTONES THREAD ON FOREKNOWLEDGE]


    The concept of foreknowledge means 'knowing something before it's going to happen.' Foreordination, on the other hand, means 'ordaining (or decreeing) something in the future to happen.'

    Some believe reprobation is based on foreknowledge. That God merely peers into the future and chooses whom He will damn based on who will reject.

    Others believe reprobation is based on foreordination. That God actually decided whom He would damn apart from the decision of the person being damned.

    For those who believe in reprobation according to foreknowledge- I propose this to you: Foreknowledge coupled with omnipotence is the exact same as foreordination. Here's how:

    If God can see future events, and He is all powerful- then He is capable of altering those events. If a tsunami would be headed for California in 2008 and God didn't want it, He could easily change the climate so it wouldn't happen.

    Each time God looks into the future (we'll say it this way for sake of argument even though God doesn't have to look- He already knows) He is making decisions about what goes and what stays.

    God knew that Adam would sin. And yet God did not alter the future so that Adam wouldn't. God ordained the sin in the garden- otherwise He would have prevented it!

    Judas died rejecting Christ. God knew Judas would reject Him. But then, perhaps Judas wouldn't have if put under different circumstances. God placed Judas into the family he was born in, with the mind he was given, at the right place in the right time so that Judas would reject the gospel. It was all foreordained.

    If God merely looks into the future but cannot change the events, He is not all powerful. If He CAN change the events but chooses not to- we have the God of deism. The truth is that He is ordaining every minute event in human life as we know it! Here is the logic for this progression:

    1. Foreknowledge is seeing things before they happen.
    2. Foreordination is ordaining events to happen prior to their occurance.
    3. Omnipotence allows a being to manipulate creation at will.
    4. God has foreknowledge and omnipotence.
    5. God can see into the future and choose whether to manipulate those events or not.
    6. Therefore all future events are foreordained by God either by action or inaction.
    7. This means that God's foreknowledge plus His omnipotence means He is foreordaining everything to occur.

    If you deny that foreknowledge = foreordination to damnation, you are denying God's omnipotence. If you hold this position- I'd really like to know why and how that's possible. God bless.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  2. webdog

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    Great job, Mark [​IMG]
    Funny (and sad) when the shoe is on the other foot...
     
  3. TexasSky

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    You obviously don't understand the view of those who believe in foreknowledge.

    In order for foreknowledge to equal fore-ordinance, God would remove all will from mankind and in the end only be playing out an elaborate game where He is the 2 year old and we are the barbie and ken dolls doing whatever He demanded we do so His game works out more interesting. He would be a cruel God, whose entire existence was just a sham. After all, without free will, the only explanation for homicidal murder, serial killers and rapists is "God made them do it."

    The God that many of us know is a loving heavenly Father who knows us well, and loves us dearly. He wanted loving companions, not puppets. So He gave us the gift of intelligent choice. He gave us guidelines, He gave us love, He offered us mercy. He provided means to be forgiven for our bad choice. Knowing all, though, even as He offers us opportunities to turn from wickedness to Him, He knows, ultimately, whose hearts are so hard they will never turn and whose are still tuned to Him enough to repent.

    As a parent, I understand the difference easily.
    I don't have to be clairivoyant to know what choices my children will make under certain circumstances, today or tomorrow or next week. I know their hearts and I know their minds. I know that given a certain set of temptations, they will disappoint me. (The temptation to spend an extra hour with their friends instead of cleaning their room will win out every time. On the other hand, the temptation to steal will never win out.) I don't have to physically force them to behave one way or the other.

    Because I love them, I do allow them freedom of choice. Society even admits that to do otherwise is cruel. We call total control of another human being abuse.

    God is NOT abusive.
    God cannot sin, ergo, God cannot CAUSE men to sin.

    According to God's word- God is holy, He is merciful, He is loving, He is forgiving, He IS love. He is just.

    The image of a God that causes a man to commit a horrid sin, and then condemns that man to hell because he did what God forced him to do is NOT the image of God that the bible displays.

    You don't read, "God caused the men of Sodom to try to rape the angels of God." You don't read, "God caused Judas to betray Christ." You read, "God knew that Judas was the betrayer."
    You don't read, "God caused David to have sex with Bathsheba." You read that God was very upset with David for having done so.

    I think it is absolutely blaspheme to say that God causes every single action in the universe, because by default it accuses God of forcing man to sin, and that is attributing the things of man to God. That is accusing God of being unjust, unholy, sinful, and evil.
     
  4. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    I totally agree with you. I took Whetstone's words from another thread and showed that they prove predestination to damnation as easily as they prove predestination to salvation. And though the implications are obvious and inescapable, few Calvinists will accept the logical ramifications of their philosophy.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  5. TCassidy

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    It sounds to me as if you don't understand what "free will" is. All people make choices. God does not remove the ability to make choices. The point is, and always has been, that fallen man will always make the wrong choice when it comes to spiritual matters. The reason he will always make the wrong choices is that he cannot receive the things of the spirit, they are foolish to him, he cannot know them, and he is an enemy of God and does not even recognize that he has a spiritual need.
     
  6. webdog

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    TS...that was a mock of whetstone's post. I think you are preaching to the choir.
     
  7. webdog

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    I didn't. Jesus is my Lord and Savior.
     
  8. 2BHizown

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    I didn't. Jesus is my Lord and Savior. </font>[/QUOTE]If that is so then you should be often on your knees thanking HIm, because if so it means that He chose you!
     
  9. webdog

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    I didn't. Jesus is my Lord and Savior. </font>[/QUOTE]If that is so then you should be often on your knees thanking HIm, because if so it means that He chose you! </font>[/QUOTE]I do thank Him for choosing me...in His Son as all believers are chosen. Corporate, not individual.
     
  10. whetstone

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  11. timothy27

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    Mark I have no problem believing some are forordained to damnation. Makes me all the more thankful to God that I am not.

    Romans 9... Some pots are created for glory others for destruction so that we may know God's glory.
     
  12. webdog

    webdog
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    It would help to quote Romans 9 correctly and in context...
    Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?
    Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

    Note that it doesn't say God makes vessels for wrath, but HAS THE RIGHT to. "WHAT IF....
     
  13. BobRyan

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    Some have supposed that a “judgment” that is impartial as Paul points to in vs 6 and 11 must “only have failing cases”. But Paul shows in vs 7 that such is not the case. The “Good News” does not require God to arbitrarily be “partial to the FEW of Matt 7” as some have supposed. Rather it allows for God to be “impartial” and to SAVE mankind on that basis!

    The “Failing case”: Clearly a contrast is being introduced "but to those who are selfish" - contrasted with what? Those who repent, seek eternal glory and honor and persevere. Persevere in what?

    You must be on the right path to be approved in perseveringly staying on the right path. It is obvious I know, but worth noting.

    So God has now contrasted the good and the wicked, those who persevere on the right path and those who are not even on it. The opposite of such a just, objective just system would be “arbitrary selection” of the saved vs lost. It would be to arbitrarily select some for favor instead of “So loving the World”.

    We already know that in the judgment there are two classes - those that receive immortality and those that do not. If it is not clear to us by now that this chapter is dealing with both classes - we need to engage in some remedial reading comprehension.
    At this point Paul seems to ask that we "be not deceived" into thinking that some can do evil but find "preferred treatment" because God will “favor the few over the many” of Matt 7. He does not let us suppose that the “many” will be lost for doing evil while the “favored” ones also do evil and yet due to “arbitrary selection and gross partiality to the FEW”, go to heaven. Rather Paul argues that God has called all to repentance and all must comply - there will be no preferred treatment based on status (or even magic phrases) allowing some of the rebels in.

    But basic to Paul’s solution is the affirmation that God is NOT partial when it comes to the Gospel – when it comes to Salvation. That means that He is NOT favoring the “few” of Matt 7 over the “many” so that He can save the “Few”. Rather – impartiality demands that ALL be given the same salvation-sequence. ALL have the Holy Spirit convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment (John 16:8) and ALL have the Drawing of God (John 12:32) and ALL have the Lord Jesus Christ standing at the door and knocking – and ALL have the SAME promise of the New Covenant that “changes the TREE itself” Matt 7 and writes the Law of God on the heart (Heb 8).

    Rather than simply “favoring some over others” the system defined above is “impartial” as God HIMSELF is “Impartial”. This Gospel truth was a huge problem for the Jews and is a big problem for Calvinism.
     

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